Thoughts on what to change in my Arsenal please!

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BeardedBowler
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Thoughts on what to change in my Arsenal please!

Post by BeardedBowler »

Hustle is a Hustle Wine but database didn’t show the option.
I feel I could fill a gap with a Stronger cover/core symmetrical or weaker Asym.

Pitch black - 4 x 30 VAL
Hustle Wine - 4.5 x 35 VAL
Hyroad - 4.5 x 35 VAL
Volt Solid - 5.125 x 35 VAL
Nova 55 x 5.25 x 45
DNA - 65 x 4.75 x 75
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Glenn
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Re: Thoughts on what to change in my Arsenal please!

Post by Glenn »

O Bearded One, you have lots of viewers but no takers!
Let’s see if we can change that situation.

CAVEAT: I am NOT an expert (as pointed out here) and do not claim to be one.
I have not seen you bowl where you bowl, so I will not make any specific recommendations.
I’ll leave that to your pro shop and others.

Another post indicates that you are slightly rev dominate (100), and have an arsenal for house and sport.

You posted your arsenal using BTM, and I’ll continue by using their performance data for length and total hook just to get an apples-to-apples comparison. I plugged your arsenal numbers into a graph that I use to get a picture of how this arsenal shapes up. The colored square boxes indicate values appropriate for house and some lower-volume sport. The associated circles cover slightly higher/lower values in the categories.
Bearded Bowler Arsenal - BTM.pdf
Next, I used a template from a proven system to rank and select bowling balls developed by Ernesto Avila. Your equipment seemed to “fit” the template for balanced bowlers. I used it not to select bowling balls, but to pigeon hole the equipment you currently own. The highlighted (in red) values are those that don't quite fit the suggestions. NOTE: I am not a big fan of the high RG suggestion for S3 in this template.
Bearded Bowler - Equipment.pdf
As always your mileage may vary.
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BeardedBowler
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Re: Thoughts on what to change in my Arsenal please!

Post by BeardedBowler »

Thanks Glenn!
Glenn
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Re: Thoughts on what to change in my Arsenal please!

Post by Glenn »

O Bearded One, you are welcome!

I intended to look over the layouts drilled on your arsenal, but got distracted.

CAVEAT: I have no dog in the layouts hunt (LOL). I don’t care...

1. If you use one or two favorite layouts or have a unique layout for each ball.
2. If you believe that layouts are only a “tweak” mechanism for a bowling ball, or not.
3. If you use the Dual Angle Layout System, Storm’s VLS, or something else.
4. If you believe the Drill Angle has any value in SYM balls, or not.

When I lay out a bowling ball, I like to compare the suggestions from three systems available to me.
When I get concurrence from the three, I figure that’s the layout I want to use on that ball.

When looking at your layouts on your symmetrical balls, I noticed that you use the common “two values” approach.
Even though the Drilling Angle is not important in regards to the reaction shape, I still like to use it to calculate the transition time.
So, I plugged in the value of “65” or "70" for the Drilling Angle (100-35=65 or 100-30=70) as my rule-of-thumb.

I assume that your SYM layouts are based on a benchmark layout for you and use a P2P of 4.5” so as not to be too strong for house conditions.

Anyway, I’ve attached my interpretation of your layouts – use with caution (LOL).
Bearded Bowler Arsenal - BTM.pdf
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BeardedBowler
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Re: Thoughts on what to change in my Arsenal please!

Post by BeardedBowler »

My 4.5 x 35 layout just happened to be what I chose for my Hustle and subsequently kept it the same on my Hyroad to let the cover/core differences dictate motion. I need to go back to that idea as I’ve gotten away from that idea with my newer equipment, I.e. Volt Nova and DNA
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Re: Thoughts on what to change in my Arsenal please!

Post by Glenn »

Over time, I've come full circle on the number of layouts.
Since you are a Storm products kind of guy, I decided to do a little experiment using Storm's VLS 2.0 spreadsheet.
I set values that I know for you, and assumed values for pattern details and ball motion to give me the layout you have on the Hustle Wine.
I changed nothing other than the ball stats for your sym balls to see what VLS would recommend.
For the ASYM balls whose stats are quite similar, I manipulated the shape values to get some separation.
The results are interesting and attached.
Bearded Bowler VLS Layouts.pdf
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Last edited by Glenn on June 6th, 2023, 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BeardedBowler
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Re: Thoughts on what to change in my Arsenal please!

Post by BeardedBowler »

Very interesting! So these layouts were generated or you input them manually?
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Re: Thoughts on what to change in my Arsenal please!

Post by Glenn »

They were generated by Storm's VLS spreadsheet software using bowler, pattern, ball specs, and ball reaction values I entered.
Enter different values and it will generate a different layout result.
I put those results into the attached pdf for ease of viewing.
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BeardedBowler
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Re: Thoughts on what to change in my Arsenal please!

Post by BeardedBowler »

They’re extremely close to what I have which is the interesting part for sure
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Re: Thoughts on what to change in my Arsenal please!

Post by Glenn »

Attached is the values I used in VLS to set up Hustle Wine for 60 x 4.5 x 35 layout.
I applied those same values to the rest of your SYM arsenal.
I tweaked the shape value for the ASYM balls.
Bearded Bowler VLS Settings.pdf
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BeardedBowler
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Re: Thoughts on what to change in my Arsenal please!

Post by BeardedBowler »

Awesome, thanks for all the diligence! Honestly had no idea this tool was a thing :lol:
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Re: Thoughts on what to change in my Arsenal please!

Post by EricHartwell »

Glenn wrote: June 4th, 2023, 11:40 am Attached is the values I used in VLS to set up Hustle Wine for 60 x 4.5 x 35 layout.
I applied those same values to the rest of your SYM arsenal.
I tweaked the shape value for the ASYM balls.
Bearded Bowler VLS Settings.pdf
The Hustle Wine is a Symmetrical ball.
The Drilling Angle is about the thumb hole.
The resultant Drilling Angle will be about 75-80* depending on the bowlers PAP.
Eric Hartwell

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
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BeardedBowler
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Re: Thoughts on what to change in my Arsenal please!

Post by BeardedBowler »

Eric is correct I measured the thumb hole center at about 80* cause it always ends up the thumb but either way. Good info!
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Re: Thoughts on what to change in my Arsenal please!

Post by Glenn »

Maybe.
In a drilled SYM ball, the PSA will always be near/in the thumb hole. The thumb hole depth, size, and pitch will affect the PSA location around the thumb hole. For the right-handed bowler, it is not unusual to find the PSA about ½ inch right of the thumb hole. In my case, the PSA is about ½ inch to the left of the thumb hole in the 10 o'clock position. Mo once stated that the SYM PSA was to the left of the thumb hole for right-handed bowlers. The only way to actually find the location of the PSA is to spin the ball in a DeTerminator, or PSA Locator machine.

I think Eric's point is that the drill angle on a SYM ball doesn't matter until you drill it (the SYM ball becomes ASYM once it's drilled). For determining how the layout will affect the SYM bowling ball dynamics, you must use the DRILLED PSA (layout location determined by your PAP). If you used the same suggested layout on three identical balls and only varied the DA, you'd get very similar or same ball reaction because the PSA is always located in/near the thumb hole.

To be clear, my intent was to address Bearded Bowler's thought of using just one layout on all of his SYM bowling balls (not to get into a discussion about suggesting specific layouts). I get it. If you are using one or two layouts:
• You take away the question of getting a new bowling ball and deciding how to get it drilled.
• If you bowl primarily in leagues and an occasional tournament, it may make sense to select similar drilling layout options on your bowling ball arsenal.
• Using a favorite layout, lets you develop an ability to read the lanes more quickly and make good adjustments.
• You remove one more variable by not having to consider how different layouts will react on different bowling balls.
• You can get away with using one (or two) layout on varying conditions IF you can alter the surface and have the skill set to manipulate the ball like advanced and pro bowlers do.
I seem to remember that when Mo was dumbing down the layout sheets for the complaining pro shops you would see tech sheets with just three (3) layout suggestions: benchmark, control, and mid-lane. I think they would make for a decent arsenal for the league bowler. Anyway...
I decided to use VLS to demonstrate if Bearded Bowler's idea of using just one layout for his SYM bowling balls would hold. I used what information I knew about the bowler, and assumed typical house conditions. For the SYM balls in Bearded Bowler's arsenal, I held these values constant while I changed the SYM bowling ball and its specs. The software did suggest the same layout on all of his reactive SYM bowling balls. And, I would expect if I knew of the tournament conditions Bearded Bowler encounters, I would get similar results.

So, let's look at the layout I used in my experiment: 60 x 4.5 x 35 (suggested by VLS – it could have been any reasonable DA value). For Dual Angle layouts on undrilled SYM balls, we don't need to worry about the non-existent PSA to mark-up a layout. If we were using VLS, we would draw a line from the Pin through the center for 6-¾ inches and mark it as our non-existent PSA. We would have the reference points needed to lay-down the vectors. We would use the bowler's PAP numbers to determine where to actually drill the layout; hence the likely 80-degree Drilling Angle measured from the drilled PSA.

So, in simple terms, how does the 60 x 4.5 x 35 layout compare to the drilled 80 x 4.5 x 35?
60 x 4.5 x 35...........................................80 x 4.5 x 35
Strong Arc Reaction Shape....................Strong Arc Reaction Shape
Medium-High Entry Angle......................Medium-High Entry Angle
Normal Transition Time..........................Slower Transition Time (more skid)

I think I've carried this discussion further than it needed to go and will not give additional comment.

As always, your mileage may vary...
Last edited by Glenn on June 10th, 2023, 11:37 am, edited 4 times in total.
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TomaHawk
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Re: Thoughts on what to change in my Arsenal please!

Post by TomaHawk »

Glen, do you really believe "Bowling Is More Art Than Science"?
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