New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

Which layout is right for me?

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RadicalRogue
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New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

Post by RadicalRogue »

Hello all,

Apologies up front for the length of this post, and any grammatical errors, as I've been rewriting and editing this for a few hours now.

I was out of bowling from 1995 until 2018, so I'm trying to do a lot of catch up. I watch way too many videos trying to get better, though I have found I truly enjoy the information Mo provided as a result of the no balance hole rule. I've been researching this question for so long, I'm a mental wreck :? As you'll see, I'm in waaayyyy too deep at this point and really need assistance getting out of this Mad Hatter's maze.

My Specs:
  • 55, pudgy, still think I'm 25, but the body doesn't obey
  • RH
  • Speed: 17.5 mph (using Ten Pin Toolkit video analysis)
  • Rev Rate: 270 - 300
  • Tilt: 10-13, measured with oil rings and by video. I've improved from 7.5 initially
  • Axis Rotation: generally around low 50s, under 30 when I successfully stay behind the ball for a couple of throws
  • PAP: 5 3/16 up 3/8 (as of spring 2022)
Would like to move back up to 15# now that I have improved form

Conditions I bowl on:
  • Sport, Challenge, and House leagues, 1 house is AMF boards, noticeably more friction, other house(s) are old Bowl America's with Anvilane (current Sport shot league)
  • 2021-2022 THS avg: 192; Sport avg: 180 (over 4 patterns, 36 weeks)
  • I would like to get over 200, be competent in tournament play, and bowl a PBA50 event, with an actual shot at cashing those events
Current arsenal is 14's: 5 Asym, 1 Asym Urethane, 3 Syms, The Spy, and an old worn out 15# Sym (leave this in the trunk, its soaked in oil)
I rarely pull any of the Syms out. Most of those were drilled up for an older PAP, I would not say I view any as a Benchmark, though 1 is closing in on being that. It's a PRIDE at 50 x 3 5/8 x 45 when my PAP was 4 7/8 ^1 3/8. Actually wondering what the new PAP did to those angles and it's shape. It's less jumpy/angular now. It used to never get into a roll before reaching the pins. I also was hitting mid 16's to mid 17's on the lane's speed sensor. Now I range from high 13's to mid 15s unless the pattern has very low up front friction and the ball has half it's normal speed drop.

Oddly, the 15# I rarely use has my best house league avg, only 7 games though, including a recent 277. That ball is simply too worn out. It's a Purple Edge solid I bought used, baked 3 times and still oozes oil if left in the trunk. After buying it, I left it in the trunk 45 minutes, and it looked like I pulled it out of a bucket of oil.


Present day quandary:
  • Would like to try some 15# balls, with proper layouts. I am hopeful I can get my Revs into the low 300's and tilt to maintain 13
  • redrill or new closeout has been my plan in case this doesn't work out to keep costs down
    -- The new stuff I discuss below is all Radical because of what's available at close out pricing near $100 ea.
    -- I love the idea of getting a good sense of the true numbers of the drilled ball in the box, so if I can do this with Radical, yeah! though I am currently mostly Motiv
  • the goal was for these to be the most versatile/used of a 6 ball arsenal (house shots and less hard sport conditions)
  • I can shoot spares with any ball if I need, even throw it backup, so If I have to lose The Spy for a Counter Attack Pearl, that's fine

Main Influences in trying to build an Arsenal and figure out layouts:
  • Mo Pinel
  • Ronald Strickland Jr / CTD
    -- BTW, why do his layouts for Angular and traction seem to be the opposite of Mo's? ex: Mo suggests a 3.5 P2P, RSJ a 5.25 P2P. Huh?
  • JR Raymond
  • Rob Johnson / Lane Side Reviews Arsenal building Videos
  • Bowling This Month for comparing balls based on the Tweener Tester
  • couple local Pro shops, and the person I am getting coaching from (I'm gathering info from multiple points in an attempt to gauge how much faith/stock I can put into each PSO)

BTW, I have an obsession with the Results core. I like weird and Radical stuff, so this core just plays into my manias. Research suggests the Solid version would make an excellent Benchmark/use on multiple conditions ball


********* Aiming for maximum versatility in a 3 ball only bag *********

Benchmark Sym replacement?: maximum control in place of something like a Bonus/Venom Shock/IQ Tour etc Sym ball. Spares, Short patterns, Stay to the Right conditions
Results - 90 x 1.25 x 45 (or whatever properly fits my specs) or Mo's D drilling for my specs
(as a fan of the once Great 80's football franchise, the team formerly known as the Redskins, I like the color scheme :mrgreen: )

The following are the main influences on this idea/decision:
  • after breaking down the Throwbot video comparing drillings A and D, D mimics my usual line with better impact angle and exit position
  • There's a Bowling Science where Mikey uses 3 Results with Max Pin Up, Early Rev, and Short Pin. I like the shape of the short pin for a stay right type of ball, something to replace a Urethane perhaps
  • Other reviews of this ball for speed dominant and matched bowlers
  • Payback is a consideration, but I really want to try a short or Pin under on this core

Medium/Heavy Benchmark option: Asym Benchmark useable on most conditions, guessing Versatile layout
Results Solid: What layout is the big question, using Paddock app, came up with: 65 x 3 7/8 x 45

Factors for choosing this ball:
  • Bowling this Month tweener testing - the Tweener bowler has very similar numbers to me: 17.8 / 320 / 10 / 65 / 4.5 Up 0
  • Tweeners layout puzzles me though: 70 x 3 3/8 x 50 It's like a mix of Mo's Max Flip with a control layout's VAL.
    -- Wouldn't that go too long and break weakly?
    -- Or is the motion this person is getting the motion I'm not realizing I'm trying to find?
  • The layout I picked here was using Paddock to try and adjust from Tweener's specs to mine
  • Tweener found the solid useable on all patterns, so this appears to be a very multi purpose ball and surface
    -- And why I'm considering mimicing his layout, adjusted for me, if his layout is that versatile on this ball
  • I have considered just getting 3 solids and drilling A B and D style layouts as Mo recommended those drillings for a Speed Dominant bowler in an Arsenal building Mo Monday vid

Angular Piece:
Results Plus (If taking Pearl, might as well take the other color. Or better off with a 2nd Solid here? or is only Surface important?)
  • Max Flip layout, trying to adjust for my specs in Paddock: 70 x 3 1/2 x 25 (I'm scared of this kind of layout, no clue what it will do for me, i have nothing like this)
  • in my research, I found no difference in the OG and the Plus.
    -- in the Plus Throwbot video, they use a different line for the OG than in the OG's video, which caused it to look lesser in my opinion.
    -- Other reviews I found show very little difference
  • oddest research point: JR Raymond drilled this 85 x 5 x 85. What the heck? But he loved how it blended the pattern, he was practicing on a 37' pattern iirc. I can't fathom what that drilling is doing, and I'm pretty sure I can't pull that off :)

I have tried to plan out a 6 ball eventual arsenal, if this test works out as I hope it will. Here are some ideas I've had:
Closeout options in the $99-109 range:
  • Results, all 3 versions
  • Both Counter Attacks
  • Pandemonium Solid
Closeout options in the $119 range:
  • Bonus Pearl
  • Sneak Attack
Current lineup options I've considered for initial test bag, if they are truly better than a Results with a specific layout:
  • Payback
  • Bigfoot - fascinated by a core that can be Sym or Asym based on the drilling. appears to be a med/dry condition ball
  • The Informer would be an option if it popped up on sale at like $120
For the first 3 ball bag, I lean towards 2 Results' and 1 Counter Attack, or 3 Results'. I pretty much ruled out the Pandemonium as I it appears to be a lot like the Forge Flare I have, which I rarely use, except on really long/heavy patterns to see if it'll do anything. I just don't seem to understand how to use Syms or I have mine all setup wrong.

The vernacular of the arsenal building I'm using has the following: 3 Control pieces, 3 Angular Pieces; I ea Heavy/Strong, Medium/Benchmark, Dry condition. One of the Dry might be Urethane/Spare or straight up Spare. I do have a 14# Spy, and that thing is funny as heck to use as a strike ball. it's one of the main reasons I want to build a Radical bag. I swear it hits more like a 15 than a 14.

If I were to slot the 3 options I'm trying to get for this test bag, I'm looking at the Results Solid to fill both the Heavy and Medium Control ball, because it appears to be that versatile. The Short Pin or Pin Down Results, or Counter Attack (solid or pearl?) seems to fill a Dry spot depending on choice. The Angular option would fit either a Heavy Angular or Medium Angular depending on surface I am theorizing.

If going back to 15 works, and I fill out a 2nd bag, the current thinking might be: a Trailblazer, then the Results Plus becomes the other angular option. Get a Payback, and the R Solid becomes the Heavy Control option. That sort of thing. Even the Crypto and TB Solid if I get that far


Thanks for you patience, looking forward to your smackdown of my crazy talk, and being depressed for a few days when you tell me that many Results' is silly 8-)
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Re: New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

Post by EricHartwell »

Welcome to BowlingChat
RadicalRogue wrote: July 11th, 2022, 6:12 pm Speed: 17.5 mph (using Ten Pin Toolkit video analysis)
Rev Rate: 270 - 300
Tilt: 10-13, measured with oil rings and by video. I've improved from 7.5 initially
Axis Rotation: generally around low 50s, under 30 when I successfully stay behind the ball for a couple of throws
PAP: 5 3/16 up 3/8 (as of spring 2022)
I always start by figuring out your Benchmark.
You are a little bit Speed dominant.putting you at 90* Totals
Your Tilt and Rotation put you at a 1.5:1 Ratio

Asymmetrical Benchmark ................... 55-4-35

Symmetrical Benchmark .................... xx-4-30

When I have some more time I will read your post more thoroughly and comment more.
Eric Hartwell

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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Re: New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

Post by RadicalRogue »

Thanks. The closest ball I have to a benchmark is a Motiv Pride which was drilled 50 x 3 5/8 x 45 with my old pap. I had the PS check the angles based on my new PAP, and it's 40 x 4 5/8 x 35 now. I will say it seems closer to what I think a benchmark should be, as it's now more controlled off the break. Guessing that's the longer P2P the new PAP caused?

I also used my Iron Forge after putting 2000 on it, and it ended up be being my best ball tonight (Dragon 45'). It was 35 x 3 5/8 x 30, so based on the changes to the Pride, this is likely (25 x) 4 5/8 x 20 with my new PAP. I'm used to that ball being super angular but tonight it was just strong enough to have some punch into the pocket.

So 55 x 4 x 35 sounds like the type of starting point I am seeking.

Looking forward to the rest of your advice.
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Re: New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

Post by RadicalRogue »

so, just because I've seen so much about it, I found a Bonus solid NIB for a decent price. Should I just get it regardless? or consider the Payback as a direct replacement?
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Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
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Re: New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

Post by EricHartwell »

RadicalRogue wrote: July 12th, 2022, 4:49 am Thanks. The closest ball I have to a benchmark is a Motiv Pride which was drilled 50 x 3 5/8 x 45 with my old pap. I had the PS check the angles based on my new PAP, and it's 40 x 4 5/8 x 35 now. I will say it seems closer to what I think a benchmark should be, as it's now more controlled off the break. Guessing that's the longer P2P the new PAP caused?

I also used my Iron Forge after putting 2000 on it, and it ended up be being my best ball tonight (Dragon 45'). It was 35 x 3 5/8 x 30, so based on the changes to the Pride, this is likely (25 x) 4 5/8 x 20 with my new PAP. I'm used to that ball being super angular but tonight it was just strong enough to have some punch into the pocket.

So 55 x 4 x 35 sounds like the type of starting point I am seeking.

Looking forward to the rest of your advice.
What you have with the Motiv Pride is a Midlane layout, Earlier than a Benchmark. It is a Strong Control type layout.

The Results is a good ball with a Strong versatile core. At a good price it is worth having one to work with for your arsenal.
It could be a really good ball to put your actual Benchmark layout on.

Once you actually roll a Benchmark then you can use the Dual Angle method to adjust from that and fill in a 3 ball arsenal.
Remember the Benchmark drilling is a Strong layout and could easily be the strongest ball in a 3 ball set for house shot leagues.
Eric Hartwell

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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Re: New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

Post by RadicalRogue »

Thanks Eric,

So, slight update on ball Options. I've pulled the trigger on 2 auctions, so I need to figure out what to do with them and perhaps add 1 additional piece to start off with.

What I need to know within the next 20 hours or so, is:
  • Can get a Bonus Solid for near $100 before shipping.
    -- -- Should I pull the trigger and get that no questions asked?
  • Or, look at the Payback as the newer , bit stronger version of the Bonus, considering what follows:

I happened to win 2 auctions tonight, and picked up a Trailblazer for $75 and a Results for $65, so at those prices, I couldn't pass them up. I am pretty sure those will fit somewhere in a 3 and 6 bag arsenal :)
  • Trailblazer: Not sure what layout / position to use this for, suspect it's a Long Strong option being a Hybrid?
  • Results: I've been eyeballing this as a control piece with a D control drilling or a Short Pin for at least a month.
    -- -- Not sure if that makes it too similar to a Bonus to make getting the Bonus a good move.
If not one of these 2 layouts, I would not be sure how to setup the Results, as 1 of those 2 layouts has been my "thought" for a while now.

Being as I have nothing like the Bonus, nor have I ever used something like the Results in those layouts, are they going to be complementary or tripping over each other is what I am unsure of. Perhaps if they would overlap too much, the Payback would make a better option, or the CA pearl for complete a complementary 3 ball league arsenal for starters? Perhaps a Counter Attack is a better match for the 2 I just picked up?


Thanks
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Re: New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

Post by EricHartwell »

I like the Payback for you over the Results because of the Stronger core.

Once you have 3 and/or 6 balls in your possession I will put layouts to them setting up the 3 and 6 ball bags.
Using layouts and surface preps to give you a well balance arsenal and not waste time and energy on initial thoughts that don't consider what balls are over and under it in the arsenal. Having the whole picture in front of me makes things much easier and more efficient.

I will not be using the a,b,c,d... layouts as those were put together to satisfy Brunswick and have drill sheets in the box.
Designed for the people who have not really learned how to use the Dual angle method.
They are not custom layouts but generic one size might fit a majority type layouts.
Once I go through the exercise of setting up your arsenal you can compare what I figured out using the Dual Angle method to the generic layouts.
Eric Hartwell

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Re: New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

Post by RadicalRogue »

Gotcha. I'm gonna guess you meant you like the Payback over the Bonus because of the stronger core? Just looked at the differences in the Payback and Crypto 4 x 30 drillings, wouldn't have guessed the Payback has the higher RG. Is there a preferred RG and Diff range for me being Speed dominant?


So, I'll have the TrailBlazer and Results next week I suspect, presuming shipping takes less than a week. Would you be recommending the Payback then to complete that bag?

I did have 1 question regarding ratios. Why 1.5:1 and not 1.75 or 2:1 for me? Trying to read thru the many documents on the wiki, I found the chart for Ratios, and a tilt of 10 was recommended to use 2:1 and 12.5 to use 1.75:1. Does the amount I'm speed dominant play that much of a factor in the ratio being 1.5?
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Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
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Re: New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

Post by EricHartwell »

RadicalRogue wrote: July 13th, 2022, 9:33 pm Gotcha. I'm gonna guess you meant you like the Payback over the Bonus Yes the Bonus, sorry you had me thinking about too many different balls at one time. because of the stronger core? Just looked at the differences in the Payback and Crypto 4 x 30 drillings, wouldn't have guessed the Payback has the higher RG. Is there a preferred RG and Diff range for me being Speed dominant?
Don't get to hooked on Rg, Pay more attention to Differential and also Int. Differential for Asyms.

So, I'll have the TrailBlazer and Results next week I suspect, presuming shipping takes less than a week. Would you be recommending the Payback then to complete that bag?
I think it could make a pretty good Control piece to have when the big Asyms are just too much.

I did have 1 question regarding ratios. Why 1.5:1 and not 1.75 or 2:1 for me? Trying to read thru the many documents on the wiki, I found the chart for Ratios, and a tilt of 10 was recommended to use 2:1 and 12.5 to use 1.75:1. Does the amount I'm speed dominant play that much of a factor in the ratio being 1.5? Short answer, Yes.
You gave a range for Tilt so I went in the middle 12.5*. Then I moved it 1 column to the right to compensate for speed.
Higher rotation has similar affect to increased speed. Thus the Ratio is lowered to accommodate for the natural length you can get because of speed.
Comments in color above
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Re: New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

Post by RadicalRogue »

Thanks.

In a case like the Payback and Crypto, with .046 / .013 and .050 / .010 numbers on their 4 x 30 drillings, is there another factor to pick between them? I would guess the difference is in the covers.

And I would presume something like the Bigfoot is way to big for a Benchmark ball, having over .060 diff?
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Re: New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

Post by RadicalRogue »

In league tonight, on 2022 SYC Smyrna TN 47' I tried my Xeno {50 x 4.75 x 30) at 500 surface, Mythic Jackal at 1500 (50 x 4.25 x 30), Pride with 3000, and Iron Forge with 1000 surface (14# core is 2.49 .054 undrilled).

The IF was wonderful, the Pride was usable, the rest stunk. The IF was 3 5/8 x 30, so adjusting for the PAP difference now, I'd guess it's more like 4 5/8 x 20 or 25 now.

It was smooth, read in the midlane when I was going 14 / 11 / 9. At the end of the night, I actually moved to 22 over 15, out to 9-11 range, and it shaped nicely into the pocket with a later read point.

This and Monday night are the only times I've used a Sym ball effectively, and understood the more smooth arc shape it creates. Guess not using it at box finish was the key.

It did appear to have a forward roll vs a continuous roll as well. When it turned it headed to the pocket, not towards the 7.
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Re: New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

Post by RadicalRogue »

As I wait for the Trailblazer, Results, and now Results Solid, to arrive next week, I'm wondering these 2 main questions:
  1. What are you recommending for the initial BenchMark ball?
    As to the BM ball, you stated earlier:
    Once you actually roll a Benchmark then you can use the Dual Angle method to adjust from that and fill in a 3 ball arsenal.
    Remember the Benchmark drilling is a Strong layout and could easily be the strongest ball in a 3 ball set for house shot leagues.
    Curious if one of those I've picked up, or something else, is your BM recommendation for me:
    • Arriving next week: Trailblazer, Results Solid, Results OG pearl
    • Payback or another from the current/upcoming Radical offerings?
    • some other offering you might be suggesting?
    If the preferred BM is one of the ones arriving next week, excellent, which one and am I putting the 55 x 4 x 35 layout on it?
    If it's the Payback or other current/upcoming offering, I'll need to buy that, and what drilling what I be putting on it?
      • What might the initial 3 ball bag look like?
        • If one of these I've picked up fits the initial "Strong Benchmark/strongest ball in a league bag", that would be great. If these are later on spot fillers, oh well. If they end up not fitting, no biggie, the deals were good enough I should be able to flip them.
        I'm picturing that bag being something like BM: Results Solid, Control: Payback, what is the 3rd, Spare/dual purpose? Could this be something like the Results OG in a pin down or short pin, or a Counter Attack solid or pearl, Double cross, Spy, etc?
      If I understand your plan, I need 1 ball to setup as the BM baseline ball, use it some, provide you with feedback on how it performs, then you'll have suggestions for filling out an arsenal?
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      Re: New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

      Post by RadicalRogue »

      Eric,

      I'll be receiving the Trailblazer, Results and Results Solid in the next 2 days. I chatted with James Bryant on the FB Radical Fan page regarding the Payback vs the Crypto. His recommendation for my specs was the Crypto for a smoother motion.

      I mention that as I await your recommendation for which ball to drill first as a BM piece to build the rest off of, as you stated earlier. Which of those best fits a BM for me, or would your recommendation fall to something else?

      Unfortunately, I've been stuck at home with Covid the past week, so didn't get a chance to play around with what I think I discovered this week. From what you've stated and what I've learned here, I think I have uncovered that my least used 3 sym balls are in actuality my benchmarks now. doh. I had hoped to get some THS play in with them to let you know how they felt, but alas, stupid Covid. Especially the Iron Forge as it's the closest to a BM number you suggested. It's at 4 5/8 by 20 or 25 adjusting from it's original 35 x 3 5/8 x 30 layout with my old pap. Putting 1000 surface on it really made it shine on Dragon, I was really curious how it would look with 1500 or 2000 or 3000 on my local house pattern last week :( Perhaps I'll finally test negative later today.
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      Re: New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

      Post by EricHartwell »

      Hope you are doing well.
      I know first hand how the Covid can kick your butt.

      Here is how I would set up your 3 ball set ...

      Results Solid ..................... Benchmark .................... 55-4-35 ......................................... Dull

      Results ..........................Long and Strong ................. 75-4-35 ........................................ Shiny

      Trailblazer .........................Control ........................ 55-4 3/4-55 Pin in the Ring Finger ......... Matte

      Holes to fill for an Asymmetrical 6 ball set ...

      Totally Strong .................... 45-5-25 .............. Dull
      Midlane ........................... 35-4.5-35 ............ Dull
      low flare ......................... 75-2.25-35 ........... Shiny
      Eric Hartwell

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      Re: New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

      Post by kajmk »

      Best wishes for a quick and complete recovery from COVID.
      May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
      and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
      contribute in some way to that happiness
      and to that freedom for all.

      John
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      Re: New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

      Post by RadicalRogue »

      Thanks John, symptom free for a week, thankfully only had a sore throat.

      Eric,

      Couple of questions:
      1. what is the difference in matte and dull?how do I maintain matte? I presume dull is sanding the surface, such as 500, 1000 or 1500?
      2. Those 3 layouts would be good for some sport and challenge patterns as well as THS? Guessing medium and short patterns?
        -- I haven't actually had a long and strong option to date, so that'll be a different experience for me.
      3. Thoughts of using a Results OG as a low flare ball, or a layout similar to the D drill sheet purpose?
        -- curious what you type of ball you would recommend for low flare if not a Results, or perhaps a 2nd one to fill both is an option?
        -- Mo's comments regarding this core when used for low flare or control layouts was one of the main reasons I wanted more than 1 of the Results balls.
      I'll see if I can get these drilled up this week and see how they perform. I'm very excited to try the Results Solid.
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      Re: New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

      Post by EricHartwell »

      1. Matte is between shiny and dull, example 3000 grit.

      2. Sport conditions do not exclusively need Sport layouts. The basic arsenal that I put together has enough variety and strength to be usable over a wide range of lane conditions.
      The Sport layouts are best on the fresh sport conditions. Once the line is broke down the basic arsenal should be adequate for the transitions.

      3. Like I said before I don't use or recommend one size fits most layouts. My arsenal layouts are custom fit to a bowlers specific release stats.
      The 90* Drilling angle in Layout D helps minimize the flare potential and better suited for the more Rev dominant.

      Remember Mo sold bowling balls. So not only was he a visionary when designing them he also knew how to sell them.
      I'm not saying that the Results wouldn't make a good low flare ball.
      But in my opinion it is such a strong core/cover combination that a great number of bowlers will need to drill it weaker to make it usable on today's high friction house shots.

      If I sold bowling balls it would be easy for me to recommend a specific ball for a low flare layout.
      Regardless of the ball I would recommend I would take into consideration the ball and your release specs to customize the low flare layout.
      Generally speaking I would look for a ball with a shiny cover, 2.52 or greater Rg, differential greater than .040 and with a mass bias rating of .017 or greater.
      Eric Hartwell

      Right Handed
      PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
      45* rotation
      12* tilt
      330 rev rate
      16 mph off hand
      RadicalRogue
      Member
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      Posts: 16
      Joined: July 11th, 2022, 12:48 pm

      Re: New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

      Post by RadicalRogue »

      Thanks, that makes sense regarding what you mean by dull and matte. I wasn't sure if there was more do it that just which grit.

      Would this be an accurate understanding of why which layout on which ball?
      use the Results to amplify what it is made to do, use the Solid for benchmark as it shouldn't have trouble reading the lane considering my speed dominant nature, and calm the Trailblazer down a bit in the control spot?


      When to use each. This is what I have no confidence in my understanding of:
      L&S - THS as the lanes transition and the BM is starting to cross over the head pin? Med/heavy to Long Sport conditions where a fast read off the spot is needed?
      BM - pretty much start every session to get a sense of the lanes and pattern and adjust accordingly.
      Control - THS is playing Wet/Dry, Over/Under? Drier lane conditions? Shorter sport patterns? Need the ball to not be super fast reading the dry?

      So a typical THS night might start with the BM, move to the L&S 2nd/3rd game, then down to the Control if the L&S gets too touchy? Something like that?
      Where a sport night might go from the RS to the TB to add a little length/later BP and might not see the L&S on certain types of patterns? And vice versa.


      I'll get the Results Solid drilled up first, then do a Tilt/Rev/Speed analysis in case I'm deviating enough to alter the other layouts. As I try to do the math, looks like 55 x 35 on a BM works regardless if I'm at 10* or 12.5*, yet the others might change. So seems prudent to find out how much tilt I'm able to maintain before drilling up all 3.
      RadicalRogue
      Member
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      Posts: 16
      Joined: July 11th, 2022, 12:48 pm

      Re: New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

      Post by RadicalRogue »

      Also, I have some questions regarding fit, and if I might need a tweak to my pitches/span?

      My Middle finger gets torn up around the nail on the Right side (ring finger side). It's to the point I have started to tape that side of the finger from time to time. The older settings from PSO 1 below are Vacu Grip style, so the inserts are on the slightly small side to allow for expansion as needed, yet snug fit when the fingers are normal to slightly shrunken.
      • Would my pitches possibly be the cause of why the right side of the middle fingers gets torn up regularly?
      • Would this kind of wear indicate the Middle finger is overly dominant in my release?


      These numbers are from snapshots of the drill sheets from 2 PSO's I use. PSO 1 setup most of what I use. PSO 2 is the person I've been getting coaching from since the Spring and setup the last 3 balls I got.

      Fingers to Thumb : PSO 1: 2021: 4 1/4" ; PSO 2: 3/2022: 4 1/2" (iirc, the increased distance was to compensate for the pitch change)

      Middle Finger:
      PSO 1: size 3 flat side, switched to 23 this spring; PSO 2: Size 51 oval insert
      PSO 1: 5/16" no arrow marking ; PSO 2: 1/4" left arrow (sorry I don't know the proper terminology, so I'll describe what is on the paper)
      PSO 1: 0 ; PSO 2: 1/2" up arrow
      PSO 1 fingers also Vacu grip style

      Ring Finger:
      PSO 1: size 11 flat side, switched to 43 this spring ; PSO 2: Size 23 oval insert
      PSO 1: 3/8" no marking;[ b]PSO 2:[/b] 7/16 (no arrow, guessing it's an arrow to the right?)
      PSO 1: 0 ; PSO 2: 1/2" up arrow

      Thumb:
      1 1/4 IT grip
      0 pitches

      I have no rubbing or wear on the Thumb or Ring Finger.
      User avatar
      EricHartwell
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      Posts: 4080
      Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
      Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
      Speed: 16 off hand
      Rev Rate: 330
      Axis Tilt: 12
      Axis Rotation: 45
      Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
      Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
      Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
      Location: Michigan

      Re: New Member, Layout/Arsenal advice, slightly speed dom

      Post by EricHartwell »

      I'm not a fitter. Except for my own hand. I've made several span changes over the years,
      I know what worked for me.

      You have the same Span measurement for both your Middle and Ring finger???
      This does not seem right to me.

      My opinion of a good grip would be to have equal forces on both ring and middle finger.
      Sounds to me like you have more stress on your middle finger and/or not enough on the ring finger.

      There is some fitting information in the Wiki....

      http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... on#Fitting

      Post pictures of your thumb in the ball with your fingers laying across your finger holes, not in them.
      Eric Hartwell

      Right Handed
      PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
      45* rotation
      12* tilt
      330 rev rate
      16 mph off hand
      Post Reply