Layout help please

[strikerx]

Lots of great info on here and the wiki! I have read so much at the point now I’m getting confused

Down and in is preferred line. 2nd arrow and out on house. Sport as pattern dictates.
Left handed and use more surface on that side

2.0 hyb at 50 x 4 1/4 x 40 which has been a good on house and med sport for me
Stealth Pearl 55 x 4 x 30. Goes long with strong but controlled backend on house and low/med sport
2.0 solid 50 x 4 1/4 x 35 has been ok but not strong enough on heavier patterns
Ocean Vibe 50 x 4 x 40 for light / med


I wanted something for longer oil for an upcoming tournament so I bought the Extreme Envy drilled at 45 x 4 1/4 x 35. Thought was being a low RG it will already pick up earlier so I didn’t go lower on drill angle. Kept rest of layout similar to my other stuff (Pin to PAP and Val)

Bowled a tournament 42 ft, 27.3ml oil, 3:1 ratio

I couldn’t get the E Envy to pickup which was frustrating. Others had similar issues but thought I was prepared with the E Envy. Had surface on it 500/1000. I think I picked wrong layout.

Any thoughts on layouts for my specs for a benchmark, heavy oil ball, etc

Thank You!

——-
Specs
Left handed with thumb
PAP 4 1/4 x 1/8 up
Speed 18 off hand
RPM 360
Tilt 14
Rotation 44

[Glenn]

Strikerx,

I thought I'd respond just for the fun of it, and to compare what I offer up against what Eric Hartwell will suggest.
You want to go with Eric's advice.

That tournament pattern is a lot like the 2022 USBC Open pattern, and fairly challenging.
I think your Hammer ball choice is good: low RG, medium DIFF, ASYM, solid, and med/strong cover.
The ball surface seems appropriate at 1000-grit.
For a layout, I'd think about an arc shape, normal read time, and medium flare.
With your specs, I'd consider 50 x 3 x 45 which is a medium strength layout.
This layout won't change the ball specs much at all.
Generally speaking, this layout will be an arc reaction shape and hook/set roll motion.

Of course, it's been pointed out that I'm no expert and your mileage may vary. LOL!

[strikerx]

Thank You Glenn for the response.

The different shape could help me down lane.

I keep switching between that path or do I look to have ball start even earlier but then don’t want it to burn up too soon.

I need to also work on slowing speed a little when needed for options on these types of patterns.

[EricHartwell]

Lots of great info on here and the wiki! I have read so much at the point now I’m getting confused

Down and in is preferred line. 2nd arrow and out on house. Sport as pattern dictates.
Left handed and use more surface on that side

2.0 hyb at 50 x 4 1/4 x 40 which has been a good on house and med sport for me
Stealth Pearl 55 x 4 x 30. Goes long with strong but controlled backend on house and low/med sport
2.0 solid 50 x 4 1/4 x 35 has been ok but not strong enough on heavier patterns
Ocean Vibe 50 x 4 x 40 for light / med


I wanted something for longer oil for an upcoming tournament so I bought the Extreme Envy drilled at 45 x 4 1/4 x 35. Thought was being a low RG it will already pick up earlier so I didn’t go lower on drill angle. Kept rest of layout similar to my other stuff (Pin to PAP and Val)

Bowled a tournament 42 ft, 27.3ml oil, 3:1 ratio

I couldn’t get the E Envy to pickup which was frustrating. Others had similar issues but thought I was prepared with the E Envy. Had surface on it 500/1000. I think I picked wrong layout.

Any thoughts on layouts for my specs for a benchmark, heavy oil ball, etc

Thank You!

——-
Specs
Left handed with thumb
PAP 4 1/4 x 1/8 up
Speed 18 off hand
RPM 360
Tilt 14
Rotation 44

I have your Sweetspot at 90* Totals, 1.25:1 Ratio
Benchmark ........... 50-4-40
Basically what you have on All of your balls.
Time to get out of that comfort zone and explore what a well rounded arsenal is like.

Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong ................ 45-5-25
Midlane ....................... 30-4.5-40
Benchmark ................... 50-4-40
Long and Strong ............. 70-4-40
Control ........................ 50-3-60
low flare ...................... 70-2-40

Symmetrical Layouts
Benchmark .................... xx-4-35
Control ......................... xx-4-55
low flare ....................... xx-5-35

I like the Asymmetrical Midlane and Totally Strong Layouts for the longer oil.
[edit]
Should have modeled the Layouts first.
Your Sweetspot has the pin located in/near the Ring Finger.
Based on your span just center the pin in the ring finger or ,I hate to advertise, go with Brunswick DOT balls.

@Glenn
Thanks for creating some discussion around this one.

I get your thinking with the blending of Benchmark and Control Layouts. That ball is in my arsenal.
I like this Idea for once the lanes break down and there is some friction to work with.

[strikerx]

Thank you Eric for your insight.
You are right on with pin either in ring finger on or the edge with my layouts and definitely up to try something different to expand arsenal.

Do you think I need to increase ratio or stronger pin on some layouts due to lefty and little help breaking down pattern? Or does that become counterproductive with my specs?

Looking at the totally strong and midlane you mentioned to try.
Thank You

[EricHartwell]

My arsenal list for you took into consideration that you are a Lefty.

[strikerx]

Perfect. Thank You Eric for supporting this forum with your experience and taking the time to help.

[TonyPR]

Just my 2 cents, my daughter is also a lefty and has similar specs but about 100 less rpms so much more speed dominant than you. She has 2 strong balls: the original Envy 50 x 3 3/8 x 25 usually at 1000 and it is great on short and medium IBF patterns. From that she will step down to her benchmark which is a Stealth 3 7/8 x 40 usually at 2000. For lefties it is good when you can play left, speed control (for her usually slowing down) and being able to lowers axis rotation is key. I have seen the Extreme Envy but I prefer the original one as the Extreme seems to be a bit cleaner and the OG seems to be more early rolling and smoother.

Her other big ball, and it’s snow tires on steroids, is the Innovator Solid. That cover is super strong, usually uses it at 2000. This one is laid out 45 x 4.5 x 35, she usually uses it to play the middle of the lane and be able to have some room outside on London 44 with Ice conditioner. This ball is as strong as it gets.

With your revs your release will create more friction than hers so you may need a bit larger sums and/or less surface but I would keep similar ratios.

[strikerx]

Thank You Tony. Seems like a solid plan on ball selection she has and ball options. I’ll have to compare ratios.

[strikerx]

Hi Eric.
I thew some shots tonight to recheck my tilt and is a little different than I previously measured.

Before I used the Ten Pin Toolkit app to get my 14 deg and 44 rotation

Tonight I measured the oil ring and got different numbers for tilt. Rotation difference I don’t know

Measured 4 shots with these results
20 deg
20.83 deg
16.67 deg
20 deg

So the question is how would layout be affected from 14 tilt to these new numbers?

Thank You

[EricHartwell]

Hi Eric.
I thew some shots tonight to recheck my tilt and is a little different than I previously measured.

Before I used the Ten Pin Toolkit app to get my 14 deg and 44 rotation

Tonight I measured the oil ring and got different numbers for tilt. Rotation difference I don’t know

Measured 4 shots with these results
20 deg
20.83 deg
16.67 deg
20 deg

So the question is how would layout be affected from 14 tilt to these new numbers?

Thank You

Don't forget to update your signature with your new specs.

The answer...
The layouts will have lower Totals and a lower Ratio

Left handed with thumb
PAP 4 1/4 x 1/8 up
Speed 18 off hand
RPM 360
Tilt 20
Rotation 44

Sweetspot 80* Totals 1:1.25 Ratio

Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong ................ 35-5-25
Midlane ....................... 20-5-40
Benchmark ................... 35-4.5-45 Pin in the Ring finger
Long and Strong ............. 55-4.5-45 Pin in the Ring finger
Control ....................... 35-4-65
low flare ..................... 55-2-45

Symmetrical Layouts
Benchmark .................... xx-3-35
Control ......................... xx-4-45 Pin in the Ring finger
low flare ....................... xx-2-35

[strikerx]

Thank You Eric for the updates. Makes sense.

I will do another session warming up and check tilt again to verify then get some redrilling or new ball for the long oil layouts you suggested. I’m excited to try them on upcoming sport shot league later this month.

Curious. I have read over the Dual Angle Ratio Guide and see how the angles on different shot shapes are done. How do you then figure out the Pin to PAP position for the different layouts?

Thank You

[EricHartwell]

Pin to PAP
Where to start?
There are many influences in choosing the Pin to PAP.
Once the Benchmark is figured I adjust the Pin to PAPs stronger and weaker centering around the Benchmark.

Asymmetrical
Shorter Pin to PAP burns tilt slower, lower flare
4" Max flare
Longer Pin to PAP burns tilt faster, Max flare

Symmetrical
Burns tilt faster than Asyms.
Shorter pin to PAP burns tilt faster, lower flare
4" Max Flare
Longer Pin to PAP burns tilt slower, lower flare

4" being the middle of the spectrum for both Syms and Asyms.
Max flare for most layouts.

Now you take all the different release specs and adjust the distance accordingly.

Higher Tilt bowlers will benefit from Stronger Pin to PAP, higher flare and faster burn of Tilt.

Lower Tilt bowlers will benefit from Pin to PAPs that burn Tilt slower.

Rev dominant bowlers can benefit from lower flare Pin to PAPs.

Speed dominant bowlers need Max flare setups.

Take into consideration what type of layout you are designing.

Location of the Pin to a drilled hole is at times a major influence in a recommendation.
Putting the pin in the Ring finger for example, Ideal Pin to PAP is often sacrificed to make that adjustment.

Ball choice is another factor that can influence the Pin to PAP.
Low flare Pin to PAP on a Low Differential ball = no flare
High flare Pin to PAP on a High Differential ball is MAX FLARE could flare over the thumb with higher Rev bowlers.

With Asyms a short pin to PAP and High Tilt bowler is a Bad combination.
Poor carry due to too much deflection, too much Tilt in the Roll phase.
Similar can be said with Symmetricals short pin and Low Tilt bowler another Bad combination.
Again poor carry but due to no Tilt present in the roll phase.

Dry lanes, Pin to PAPs that store tilt
Wet lanes you need all the help you can with Strong Pin to PAPs

So yeah, there is a lot of thought process that goes into picking Pin to PAPs.

[strikerx]

In depth analysis and knowledge. Love it. Thank You Eric.

I’ll need to re-read a few times to digest it all. I haven’t seen this level of analysis in any other forums so this is awesome.
You are a great asset to the bowling community. Thank You for your help.

[strikerx]

Hello Eric. Sorry for another change to my specs again. Last time I promise!
I am getting some balls re-drilled next week with your recommended layouts for an upcoming tournament. Will be on a sport shot (I don't know pattern yet) but getting a totally strong and midlane layout done. To give me the best chance I wanted to recheck my tilt and PAP before redrilling them.

PAP is the same.
Tilt I measured on 3 different balls tonight by measuring the oil rings
Tilt values of
15.83
15.83
15.83
15
15.83
16.67
15.83

The 15.83 felt like my normal shot so I would say I guess I'm at 16 deg.

Is the 14 tilt layout you gave me earlier in this thread close or do I need new numbers for the 16 deg tilt?

Thank You. I will update my profile with 16 deg tilt.

[EricHartwell]

Sweetspot 90* Totals and 1.5:1 Ratio
Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong ................. 45-5-25
Midlane ....................... 35-4.5-35
Benchmark ................... 55-4-35
Long and Strong ............. 75-4-35
Control ....................... 55-4-55
low flare ..................... 75-2-35

Symmetrical layouts
Benchmark .................. xx-4-30
Control; ...................... xx-4-50
low flare ..................... xx-5-30

[strikerx]

Thank You Eric!

I have learned so much since joining this forum. Never understood before the impact on carry and how tilt is involved but these forums helped and the need to burn off tilt for best carry.

Getting a couple balls redrilled this week and looking forward to trying them for a more rounded arsenal

[strikerx]

I have a 3D Attack which has been a great ball for league and never understood why. I saw on another post that with the int diff is low so it can be treated like a symmetrical.
Using the symmetrical layout the ball lines up to a low flare which makes sense now why I like that ball so much on house! This is starting to make more sense now.

Had a question. Looking to get the NU Blue for league. Suggestion on a layout? Would like to play 7-10 bd and with the weaker core I’m thinking need a stronger layout to get it back to pocket. Thoughts?

[EricHartwell]

Your Symmetrical Benchmark, xx-4-30

[strikerx]

]Thank you Eric for your help.
I re-drilled my Extreme Envy with your suggested Totally Strong layout and have had my best sport tournaments (40-44ft patterns) even cashing which is cool. Ball reaction so much better and in fact very surprising from how that ball used to perform for me.

I have been thinking about the Hammer 3.0 and Hammer Effect.

Would these make sense?
Was thinking 3.0 going with pin in the ring finger. For sport the ball will be able to read due to cover but will be a controlled backed and an overall step down from Extreme Envy. I currently have Statement Solid drilled between midlane and control I'm looking to replace.

Effect would go with the long and strong for the times I need to open up the lane.

Would those layouts make sense?
Thank You