Laser scanning a PEARL bowling ball after 1 game !

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Laser scanning a PEARL bowling ball after 1 game !

Post by TheJesus »

People liked the test on the solid ball, so here is one on a pearl ball ! Get free knowledge here -->

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Re: Laser scanning a PEARL bowling ball after 1 game !

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Interesting...

The ball is only on the lane for approximately + or - 3.5 seconds. But, the ball is in the return area of the machine for a proportionately longer period of time. During that time frame, the ball is in contact with abrasive materials such as carpets, conveyor belts, cushion plank (backstop), soft rubber rollers, metal tracks, hard plastic tracks, friction pads, the front ball exit area, etc., all of which are designed to aggressively move a ball from the back of the lane to the bowling area.

How much does that process affect the ball surface? (just curious)
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Re: Laser scanning a PEARL bowling ball after 1 game !

Post by Glenn »

T-Hawk,
Asked and answered ...



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Re: Laser scanning a PEARL bowling ball after 1 game !

Post by TomaHawk »

Thanks Glenn...

Guess the term "lane shine" is a little misleading, but a great tool for selling ctd's.
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Re: Laser scanning a PEARL bowling ball after 1 game !

Post by Glenn »

T-Hawk,
Are you referring to the CtD handheld bowling ball scanner?
If I were in the market, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.
It is half the price of its only known competitor - Jayhawk-PAI.
It is a digital readout (unknown granularity) rather than LEDs.
Software can be upgraded as needed.
And, Ron Hickland has shown it being used for things I hadn't even considered.
However, PAI cautions that their scanner only functions correctly on bowling ball surfaces...hmmm.
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Re: Laser scanning a PEARL bowling ball after 1 game !

Post by TomaHawk »

Glenn wrote: April 25th, 2023, 3:06 pm T-Hawk,
Are you referring to the CtD handheld bowling ball scanner?
Yes. Some people are pretty good salesmen. Not saying the product doesn't do what it is intended to do, but personally, I can do without the sensationalism.

The fact is, we don't know how the lane is going to play until the first ball is delivered. And, because of USBC's brilliance, a bowler with one bowling ball is pretty much stuck with the reaction they see. As an extreme example, even if the bowler could modify the surface, there is not really enough time to take a polished ball down to 500 grit and still get some practice before league.

At any rate, knowing the grit of the ball is subjective. A good bowler would throw the ball, watch the reaction, and adjust it accordingly. They might hit the ball with a 2000 abralon by hand (the ball surface is not going to be 2000). The adjustment creates the desired reaction.

We have been told and we know, the ball surface has transitioned from whatever it started at to "lane shine".

The question would be, how much did the surface matter to the bowler? Is the surface on that particular day, duplicatable?

Ultimately, how does a surface scanner help?
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Re: Laser scanning a PEARL bowling ball after 1 game !

Post by Glenn »

T-Hawk,

With your money, you should buy TWO of the scanners, and gift one of them to me. That'd be great!

And you' re correct about there is not really enough time to adjust the ball surface as needed during the time allowed for some practice before league. The thing I learned is that most league bowlers just leave their equipment at "lane shine", and periodically run over and slap it in the ball polishing machine.

On those occasions when I had access to one of these toys, I discovered that I didn't have a clue as to my actual result when I resurface a ball - thought I'd done a better job of putting a particular grit on the ball surface - Nope. Kinda like driving a car without a speedometer or a tractor without a tach.

I learned that the OOB surface listed by the mfgr on a new ball may be off quite a bit. And, some bowling balls hold their surface longer than others (hardness?). If I liked the ball reaction OOB, I never could trust that I knew what the surface was, and could replicate it. A good reason to put a known surface on it when you first get it, assuming you can actually replicate it.


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Re: Laser scanning a PEARL bowling ball after 1 game !

Post by TheJesus »

TomaHawk wrote: April 24th, 2023, 6:16 pm Interesting...

The ball is only on the lane for approximately + or - 3.5 seconds. But, the ball is in the return area of the machine for a proportionately longer period of time. During that time frame, the ball is in contact with abrasive materials such as carpets, conveyor belts, cushion plank (backstop), soft rubber rollers, metal tracks, hard plastic tracks, friction pads, the front ball exit area, etc., all of which are designed to aggressively move a ball from the back of the lane to the bowling area.

How much does that process affect the ball surface? (just curious)
Indeed it seems to be all that, and not the lane. I am preparing a test to showcase that. I know Ron has said it, but i want to actually show it. Thanks for watching !
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Re: Laser scanning a PEARL bowling ball after 1 game !

Post by TheJesus »

Glenn wrote: April 25th, 2023, 3:06 pm T-Hawk,
Are you referring to the CtD handheld bowling ball scanner?
If I were in the market, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.
It is half the price of its only known competitor - Jayhawk-PAI.
It is a digital readout (unknown granularity) rather than LEDs.
Software can be upgraded as needed.
And, Ron Hickland has shown it being used for things I hadn't even considered.
However, PAI cautions that their scanner only functions correctly on bowling ball surfaces...hmmm.
I doubt the CTD scanner was made by CTD. They are not an electronics company. They must have asked another company (maybe even PAI).
The Jayhawk readouts are not "LED". You need a laptop and the app to use it. The LEDs are just to check functionality.
The handheld is nice but it only scans either a point or a very small area, while the desktop scans 40.000 points all around. But it is hard to move around.
Check out my bowling related YouTube channel ! BOWLING XP ! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1cTYc ... Eynuk0qdIw :mrgreen:
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Re: Laser scanning a PEARL bowling ball after 1 game !

Post by TheJesus »

TomaHawk wrote: April 25th, 2023, 5:42 pm Yes. Some people are pretty good salesmen. Not saying the product doesn't do what it is intended to do, but personally, I can do without the sensationalism.
I agree 100%.
TomaHawk wrote: April 25th, 2023, 5:42 pmAt any rate, knowing the grit of the ball is subjective.
Not sure what you mean here, but i'd say it is the exact opposite of "subjective". Subjective is when you think you know the surface.
TomaHawk wrote: April 25th, 2023, 5:42 pmThe question would be, how much did the surface matter to the bowler?
You mean knowing the surface? Or having applied the surface? I'd say both matter.
TomaHawk wrote: April 25th, 2023, 5:42 pmIs the surface on that particular day, duplicatable?
What do you mean by "that particular day" ? All surfaces are duplicatable. Why wouldn't they be?
TomaHawk wrote: April 25th, 2023, 5:42 pmUltimately, how does a surface scanner help?
Of course it is not necessary for players. But all i can say is since i got mine, i learned a ton of things, got surprised by many things, and am still surprising others with my videos. Of course anyone can bowl well without knowing any of this. But it can help be even better.
Check out my bowling related YouTube channel ! BOWLING XP ! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1cTYc ... Eynuk0qdIw :mrgreen:
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Re: Laser scanning a PEARL bowling ball after 1 game !

Post by TomaHawk »

Surface scanners are a valuable tool when used in the production / manufacturing process. Knowing if the target rs / ra values of the surface would be critical. Is the surface (using tire terminology) a slick all the way up to a snow tire with stud and chains. That is important information.

As we bowl, the surface of the ball is constantly changing. Depending on the condition of the lane, machinery, and temperature, the ball surface might even change a little more rapidly. Knowing the original surface friction of the ball could be considered subjective, but it is not going to be the same as when the bowler finishes competition.

I look at bowling from a bowler's perspective. Believe me, everyone is looking for that magic answer as to how to perform consistently well on the lanes. Let's say a bowler shot 800. Each and every shot the surface was registered. It would be impossible to duplicate the transitions the ball went through as the day progressed. Simply, too many factors are involved and we cannot change the surface anyway.



***In terms of the use of a personal scanner? Maybe there are parameters in which a ball becomes unusable. To me, that would be worth knowing. But still, the progression at which the ball would become unusable would be impossible to anticipate.
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Re: Laser scanning a PEARL bowling ball after 1 game !

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TomaHawk wrote: May 2nd, 2023, 2:51 pmKnowing the original surface friction of the ball could be considered subjective, but it is not going to be the same as when the bowler finishes competition.
Do you mean initial surface grit here? Because it's very hard to calculate the force of friction. If you mean grit, then i agree. It is not going to be the same. Still, it is nice to know that. Many people do not. Also, it is nice to know that the X ball reaction we liked, is with Y surface. Not the surface we thought it had. Most people (me included before i got the scanner), overestimated how close they were when they named the grit of a ball. I ask them "what grit do you think this ball of yours is at" all the time. They think it is much lower than it is.
TomaHawk wrote: May 2nd, 2023, 2:51 pmLet's say a bowler shot 800. Each and every shot the surface was registered. It would be impossible to duplicate the transitions the ball went through as the day progressed. Simply, too many factors are involved and we cannot change the surface anyway.
True. But the surface changes gradually. I think because the lane also changes gradually, the change of the grit surface is not very apparent. But at least you can know that for game 1 you needed to be say at 1000 and it was ok throughout the game, for game 2 you need X starting grit, etc, even if the ball ended up shinier. But most pads , and most by hand resurfacing i have seen done, will not make the ball 1000. This is where the scanner can also help. Of course it is not practical for many people to get scanners, but that's why i test stuff on the channel and give it for free. :) (even though i have been told i should have my content at a charge).
TomaHawk wrote: May 2nd, 2023, 2:51 pm***In terms of the use of a personal scanner? Maybe there are parameters in which a ball becomes unusable. To me, that would be worth knowing. But still, the progression at which the ball would become unusable would be impossible to anticipate.
What do you mean by "parameters in which a ball becomes unusable" ? Sorry i didn't understand that.
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Re: Laser scanning a PEARL bowling ball after 1 game !

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Surface friction and grit are relatively the same to me. 500 grit creates more surface friction than 4000. How much friction is needed on any given lane condition, on that particular day, on that particular pair of lanes may be different than that which is needed in another case scenario.

Unusable would be, a ball, through its aging process, would not be as effective as it was out of the box. I am directly making reference balls that are manufactured for heavy oil conditions. Sure, we can try to detox and resurface the bal. My experience, both in the shop and as a bowler, says the ball is never quite the same. Does that mean a bowler cannot adjust? A very good bowler could, but they would probably purchase a new ball that would put them in more of an effective area of the lane.

Here's an example of what I know and have witnessed. If the known surface grit / friction does not match up at the precise moment the player is set to begin competition, the surface must be changed. The process of changing the surface then becomes random. As was mentioned in another post, figuring out that a polished ball needs to be taken to 500 grit and getting it to that surface would be time prohibitive. The lane and the ball are going to change anyway. Not only are they going to change, the change will not be in a controlled manner.

That's my point, it's random, not a controlled environment.

A scanner provides concrete information about the condition of the ball. It's not much use on the lane when the bowler is in competition.

Let's put it this way, it's like knowing why a baseball moves the way it does. That knowledge does not help a person hit it.
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Re: Laser scanning a PEARL bowling ball after 1 game !

Post by TheJesus »

I'd say friction and grit are linearly correlated, but yes the conditions change every time.
TomaHawk wrote: May 2nd, 2023, 4:11 pmUnusable would be, a ball, through its aging process, would not be as effective as it was out of the box. I am directly making reference balls that are manufactured for heavy oil conditions. Sure, we can try to detox and resurface the bal. My experience, both in the shop and as a bowler, says the ball is never quite the same. Does that mean a bowler cannot adjust? A very good bowler could, but they would probably purchase a new ball that would put them in more of an effective area of the lane.
I don't know if the scanner can measure the hitting power of a ball. This has more to do with the plasticizer left in it and the ability to deform and COR values etc. I don't think the purpose of a scanner was ever related to that. It would be fun if it could somehow though.
TomaHawk wrote: May 2nd, 2023, 4:11 pmHere's an example of what I know and have witnessed. If the known surface grit / friction does not match up at the precise moment the player is set to begin competition, the surface must be changed. The process of changing the surface then becomes random.
Why random ? One needs to have a standard technique for resurfacing, that has verified that it gives him the reaction wanted. This is much easier with a scanner, but it can be done by trial and error even without a scanner.
TomaHawk wrote: May 2nd, 2023, 4:11 pmAs was mentioned in another post, figuring out that a polished ball needs to be taken to 500 grit and getting it to that surface would be time prohibitive.
Why time prohibitive? If one likes the shape a ball makes but it goes too long, ....you take a pad and bring it down. Test the next shot and see if it needs more. Not sure why you say it is impossible due to time.
TomaHawk wrote: May 2nd, 2023, 4:11 pmThe lane and the ball are going to change anyway. Not only are they going to change, the change will not be in a controlled manner.
The lane will change according to how people play it, and the pattern etc. The ball will gradually change in a steady rate.

Most people don't know what surface they are using. Or what surface they should be using. Or how to create it. Or how it deteriorates. Or what to expect the ball to do later on to anticipate it. A scanner can help with all of these so it indirectly helps. Of course most people dont have a scanner, but my videos can help with that haha !
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Re: Laser scanning a PEARL bowling ball after 1 game !

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My statements are in reference to league or tournament play. Some leagues / tournaments offer 10 minutes of practice. That's 10 minutes for 10 bowlers. If a person starts with a ball 4000 polished with React-a-Gloss, they would be hard pressed for time if the lanes were very oily and realized they need more surface. The process of taking the ball down grit by grit to get to 500 would take too long. And, the outcome would not be measurable at any point in time, the whole process would become random.

Take it a step further, the machines themselves are maintained at various levels with new abrasive parts being added to one machine on a pair and not the other. It seems to me, the ball is constantly changing, mostly, unpredictably even from lane to lane. Again, it's random. Nothing is etched in stone in the bowling environment.

One thing though, I've often wondered if torque, velocity, and rev rate might affect the bowling ball. That affect might be measurable and supply information to the bowler. The reason I'm saying that, I know a couple of bowlers who create such a high amount of torque off their hand, their ball exhibits a flat spot where the ball hits the lane. They seem to need newer balls more than a low rev, low speed, soft release type of person. The manner in which the ball leaves the pin deck is substantially different too.(???)

I am not a scientist. Nothing really matters to me, except, the ball needs to knock down ten pins. That is something everyone can agree upon.
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Re: Laser scanning a PEARL bowling ball after 1 game !

Post by EricHartwell »

Basically all this boils down to the fact if you want to roll a ball with a specific surface you need to refresh that surface regularly.
This includes getting the oil out of the ball.
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Re: Laser scanning a PEARL bowling ball after 1 game !

Post by TheJesus »

TomaHawk wrote: May 7th, 2023, 11:33 pm My statements are in reference to league or tournament play. Some leagues / tournaments offer 10 minutes of practice. That's 10 minutes for 10 bowlers. If a person starts with a ball 4000 polished with React-a-Gloss, they would be hard pressed for time if the lanes were very oily and realized they need more surface. The process of taking the ball down grit by grit to get to 500 would take too long. And, the outcome would not be measurable at any point in time, the whole process would become random.
Ok i understand what you're saying. But that would mean that the person in your example, started with zero knowledge of what he's supposed to do, zero knowledge of what the pattern needs, zero knowledge of equipment etc. And even then, after 1 or max 2 practice shots, one should be able to realize his ball is going too long and needs more surface. Getting a ball from polished to any other number only takes 30 seconds per side , IF you know what you're doing (....this is where the scanner helps). On an individual level i agree with 100%, because most people don't have a scanner and it is not practical to use. That is part of why i started making videos though. So others wouldn't need to measure the result because some guy with a scanner online will have told you exactly what to do. See my point? :)
TomaHawk wrote: May 7th, 2023, 11:33 pmTake it a step further, the machines themselves are maintained at various levels with new abrasive parts being added to one machine on a pair and not the other. It seems to me, the ball is constantly changing, mostly, unpredictably even from lane to lane. Again, it's random. Nothing is etched in stone in the bowling environment.
To my knowledge the parts of the machine that come in contact with the ball and shine it up, are not changed frequently at all. And in any case, so far i havent seen the rate that a ball shines up, be different from alley to alley.
TomaHawk wrote: May 7th, 2023, 11:33 pmOne thing though, I've often wondered if torque, velocity, and rev rate might affect the bowling ball. That affect might be measurable and supply information to the bowler. The reason I'm saying that, I know a couple of bowlers who create such a high amount of torque off their hand, their ball exhibits a flat spot where the ball hits the lane. They seem to need newer balls more than a low rev, low speed, soft release type of person. The manner in which the ball leaves the pin deck is substantially different too.(???)
That sounds interesting i have never heard of it, even though i have a few high rpm buddies.
TomaHawk wrote: May 7th, 2023, 11:33 pmI am not a scientist. Nothing really matters to me, except, the ball needs to knock down ten pins. That is something everyone can agree upon.
That is for sure ! And more knowledge = more probability to knock them down more often :)
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