Timing Problem

You can post any bowling related topics here.

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
BudKennedy
Member
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: January 28th, 2023, 10:28 pm

Timing Problem

Post by BudKennedy »

The past few weeks have been a struggle as I continue to find my way duiring my return to this sport. I have been overthinking just about everything to a point that there is so much bouncing around in my head that I have failed to pay attention to the important but fundamental elements of the game.

My problem is best described as a ball that just seems to be sliding down the lane with little to no finish on the back end. I began to conduct a mental review of the past few weeks and try to work this out. At the urging of some on this site, I went back and reviewed a Norm Duke video related to the approach segment of the game. As it may have turned out a possible solution to the problems I am experiencing may have been discovered. I use a 5 step delivery and Norm's video indicates that the push away really does not happen until step number 2 of 5. Step number one is just a short step to get moving and then the push away happens during the second step. Well fact is I have been pushing away on my first step. This creates a situation where the ball is delivered slightly ahead of my full slide step number 5. This is not allowing me to get fingers into the shot and basically I am just tossing the ball to my target line without the correct application of lift. Today I tested this at home on a dry run basis and if I delay the push away until step 2 then the ball is being delivered on step 5 a little later making it possible to get some fingers into the shot.

All of this seems logical to me but only going to the lanes will prove the theory of my analysis. I further believe that this timing correction could also assist with being able to stay behind the ball instead of coming over the top from time to time. Well it makes sense to me but I am wondering if you giuys think I may be on to something. I am also hoping that transition between steps 3 & 4 will be a little smoother instead of my sometimes choppy quick steps at this point. I believe that this is a body reaction due to improper timing. Let me know what you guys think while I return to overthinking the process LOL.
User avatar
TheJesus
Member
Member
Posts: 190
Joined: July 14th, 2017, 11:00 am
Speed: 17mph (foul line)
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Contact:

Re: Timing Problem

Post by TheJesus »

A video posted here will help people help you.
Check out my bowling related YouTube channel ! BOWLING XP ! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1cTYc ... Eynuk0qdIw :mrgreen:
User avatar
kajmk
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3837
Joined: October 25th, 2010, 11:41 pm
Location: Sun City Arizona

Re: Timing Problem

Post by kajmk »

Bud, regarding the links below.
We have some folks on board who can assist you, but they need to see you.


1) Jim Merrell's instructions for video capture.
I highly recommend you follow his instructions.
2) The Coaching section index to other items

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... e_Coaching

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... e=Coaching

Topic of interest
The eyes have it, especially if they are dispersed.
viewtopic.php?p=49378&hilit=Gallwey#p49378
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
User avatar
BudKennedy
Member
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: January 28th, 2023, 10:28 pm

Re: Timing Problem

Post by BudKennedy »

After considering the timing problem, I understand what was going wrong with my 5 step but I have also been encouraged to return to the 4 step delivery as a smoother less problematic method especially for us senior age bowlers. Obviously I can do both approaches simply enough but indeed I was very incorrect with my push away that for some reason I was starting during my first step of the 5 step delivery. That problem is easily corrected. I however think the 4 step would be less problematic for me as a senior age bowler and will give it a try on my next visit to the lanes. My "dry run" tests here at home indicate that the overall timing of the 4 step might just be more simple while also eliminating the choppy step between steps 3&4 on my 5 step delivery. Looking forward to trying it out in real time vs the at home dry run.

I do have some knee and hip issues that are just age related and will have to continue my conditioning effort to help this problem. Perhaps some changes are happening due to my body trying to protect certain elements that have caused some pain to the point that I actually fell on the approach about a month ago. Perhaps I am expecting too much too soon but I will continue to give em hell to the best of my ability. The 4 step will be the target of my next outing at least to verity if that is a solution for my game.
TomaHawk
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 587
Joined: July 19th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Timing Problem

Post by TomaHawk »

70 year old bowler in this particular video. We worked a lot on his timing mechanisms.

Notice how low he holds the ball in his stance, allowing him keep a calm body, maintain balance and relieved grip pressure.

[url]
User avatar
MegaMav
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4696
Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
THS Average: 225
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 14
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: Timing Problem

Post by MegaMav »

TomaHawk wrote: March 12th, 2023, 1:05 am 70 year old bowler in this particular video. We worked a lot on his timing mechanisms.

Notice how low he holds the ball in his stance, allowing him keep a calm body, maintain balance and relieved grip pressure.

He is still 1 full step out of time though.
The ball should pass by the ball side leg fully before that leg wants to come back thorough to start the 3rd step.
Otherwise the ball will have to go around the leg and become out of align with a straight swing plane.
User avatar
kajmk
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3837
Joined: October 25th, 2010, 11:41 pm
Location: Sun City Arizona

Re: Timing Problem

Post by kajmk »

By the way, timing is best assessed by the side view.

Bud, getting the ball into the swing and surrendering control to gravity is not intuitive as are some of the ball to steps synchronization.
Don't feel this is age related, it is not.
I'm an advocate of using props and practicing away from the lanes.
Example of a prop, any weighted object especially ones that have sizes comparable to a ball diameter 8.5 inches.
A gallon milk or water jug is about the right size and they have a handle.
A gallon of water is 8.6 pounds

Some articles say that a new habit takes 150 reps. Be that as it may, it takes MANY times.
Bowling is not unlike an equation. Breaking it down into components to hone execution can be very effective. Dick Ritger was excellent at doing this. For example, he would have a student work with a person to accept the balls weight after ball placement, this covered surrendering to gravity and distance of ball placement. Divide and conquer
No Ritger instructional videos are available on YouTube, most of what's out there has been corrupted.
I did find a post with a copy of some of the Ritger skill drills, see card 5 note the use of a partner, a table with a pillow might be a substitute
viewtopic.php?p=48961&hilit=Cards#p48961


Bill Hall shorty,


Don Johnson covers ball placement and timing in his first video. Well worth a watch.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
User avatar
BudKennedy
Member
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: January 28th, 2023, 10:28 pm

Re: Timing Problem

Post by BudKennedy »

Over the past month, I have viewed numerous videos made by well know professional bowlers. Each one has their main points but I am finding that it is not uncommon for their tips to quite variable from each other. Although the basic premise is the same the main points especially with regards to the push away and timing certainly have some differences. Don's video is the first one that makes reference to achieving speed in the shot. Therefore his push away is quite different and a lot more extenuated that others. An example would be he starts his push away out and up where others will tell you never to move up and others pros start in an out and down motion. I uderstand all of these but the bottom line it is what isi right for you to achieve the proper position and timing for your personal game. All of it is good information but you have to always remember that each one of us is a bit different in our strength, build and athletic ability especially as a senior age bowler. As the phrase goes, they may be right but they may not be correct for all situations.
TomaHawk
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 587
Joined: July 19th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Timing Problem

Post by TomaHawk »

Bowling is really about one thing, knocking down the most pins. And, if we look back at the most successful bowlers in the game, one thing becomes perfectly clear, each one of them has their own unique style.

People are still doing it their way today. The main difference is release technique.

(What I Think)....I'm a stickler for getting the ball into motion, cadence, and body position at the foul line.

The SWING? That is almost a non-topic with me. An old ABC Hall of Fame bowler put it best: "If you don't have that swing, you don't have a thing". That just makes sense. It's so simple, but, the most important of all aspects of bowling.

If we placed a bowling ball into a basket, tie a rope to the basket handle, suspend it from the ceiling, and move the basket straight out, it would swing on the same path / plane in which it was initially moved. Great bowlers have a knack for allowing the ball to stay on that swing path.

A person can push the ball out, push it up and out, let it drop into the swing instantly, hang the ball to the side, or directly in front. No matter what particular style a bowler adopts, it cannot interfere with the natural, gravitational movement of the ball swing path. And that's the bottom line.
walterp
Certified Coach
Certified Coach
Posts: 96
Joined: June 22nd, 2015, 1:08 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8 over, 5/8 up
Speed: 16 Foul line.
Rev Rate: 250
Axis Tilt: 13
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Rotogrip X1 RST
Medium Oil Ball: Nuclear Cell
Light Oil Ball: Fast Pitch polished with slip agent
Preferred Company: Storm/Rotogrip/Global 900

Re: Timing Problem

Post by walterp »

TomaHawk wrote: March 12th, 2023, 11:40 pm Bowling is really about one thing, knocking down the most pins. And, if we look back at the most successful bowlers in the game, one thing becomes perfectly clear, each one of them has their own unique style.

People are still doing it their way today. The main difference is release technique.

(What I Think)....I'm a stickler for getting the ball into motion, cadence, and body position at the foul line.

The SWING? That is almost a non-topic with me. An old ABC Hall of Fame bowler put it best: "If you don't have that swing, you don't have a thing". That just makes sense. It's so simple, but, the most important of all aspects of bowling.

If we placed a bowling ball into a basket, tie a rope to the basket handle, suspend it from the ceiling, and move the basket straight out, it would swing on the same path / plane in which it was initially moved. Great bowlers have a knack for allowing the ball to stay on that swing path.

A person can push the ball out, push it up and out, let it drop into the swing instantly, hang the ball to the side, or directly in front. No matter what particular style a bowler adopts, it cannot interfere with the natural, gravitational movement of the ball swing path. And that's the bottom line.
A wise man told me there are two ways to win. 1) Be better than everyone else 2) take advantage of your uniqueness.
USBC Silver Level Coach
BowlU 1 star certified coach
Ritger Level 3 coach
IBPSIA certified Technician
User avatar
BudKennedy
Member
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: January 28th, 2023, 10:28 pm

Re: Timing Problem

Post by BudKennedy »

After my weekly practice session, I feel like my timing is well on its way towards improvement. This week I used a 4 step delivery and have been able to notice a significant improvement in my overall tempo. All 4 steps are consistent and the finger leverage at the point of releasing the ball was equally smooth and the performance of the ball was where it should be. Although it is not the end all of answers it is much improved. Only time on the lanes will reach the next level of improvement.

Also noted is the fact that some of the hip, leg and knee issues were not a factor. I am encouraged that this was the right change for me at this time. Ball speed is a wee bit slower but only by 1 mph or less but the finish on the ball at the point of pin contact is much improved. I appreciate the feedback that some of you have provided. It helped me improve the overall mechanics of the swing to a point where progress is certainly being made. Believe me when I say that after being away from the game for decades this is an important gain in my return to the game. Up until now I have not been worried about scoring but perhaps now I will have an opportunity to start thinking about it during my ongoing practice sessions.
User avatar
kajmk
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3837
Joined: October 25th, 2010, 11:41 pm
Location: Sun City Arizona

Re: Timing Problem

Post by kajmk »

walterp wrote: March 14th, 2023, 5:30 pm A wise man told me there are two ways to win. 1) Be better than everyone else 2) take advantage of your uniqueness.
Wisdom indeed.
The difference between style and flaw lies in results ...

If you look at videos of bowlers wrapping up a 300 game, you will see that not all of them have read the book. 😉

I remember reading an article by Bob Summerville (Founder of BTM) regarding instruction. Within the article he asked, "how do we know that the way we've always taught bowling is the best way".

RIP Bob, gone far too soon.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
walterp
Certified Coach
Certified Coach
Posts: 96
Joined: June 22nd, 2015, 1:08 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8 over, 5/8 up
Speed: 16 Foul line.
Rev Rate: 250
Axis Tilt: 13
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Rotogrip X1 RST
Medium Oil Ball: Nuclear Cell
Light Oil Ball: Fast Pitch polished with slip agent
Preferred Company: Storm/Rotogrip/Global 900

Re: Timing Problem

Post by walterp »

kajmk wrote: March 19th, 2023, 5:02 pm Wisdom indeed.
The difference between style and flaw lies in results ...

If you look at videos of bowlers wrapping up a 300 game, you will see that not all of them have read the book. 😉

I remember reading an article by Bob Summerville (Founder of BTM) regarding instruction. Within the article he asked, "how do we know that the way we've always taught bowling is the best way".

RIP Bob, gone far too soon.
I know a bowler who is in the NJ Hall of Fame, won a regular regional as a Senior, very unique footwork, Armswing and release are great, but if he were to go to a strange house and take on the local house mice, the mice would be slaughtered. Looking at him, you would think, he's maybe 180 tops, but he has found a way to repeat shots on demanding conditions.great spare shooter, very straight armswing. At the foul line, he lands on the "wrong foot" and hops to the right.If I were to be his coach, I'd want to take a video when he is bowling good as a baseline,and then if he gets into a funk, take a video and compare it to the one where he is bowling good. Any readers in the NJ area will know him, and a lot of Eastern region PBA players will also know him... a well meaning coach could really throw a monkey wench into the works by changing what he does. Coach for function, not for aesthetics. Just be because it doesn't look pretty, does not mean it is not functional for him. If he were a 150 bowler, his style would be a flaw, but since he has proven himself on the Regional stage, that so called flaw IS his style. His nick name is Wrongfoot.
USBC Silver Level Coach
BowlU 1 star certified coach
Ritger Level 3 coach
IBPSIA certified Technician
User avatar
kajmk
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3837
Joined: October 25th, 2010, 11:41 pm
Location: Sun City Arizona

Re: Timing Problem

Post by kajmk »

In recognition of all successful "Wrong Foots and so on" :)

In my opinion, the Magnus opus of bowling tome was penned by Tom Kouros that being
Par Bowling ...

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Books

In its time, it was perhaps the consummate treatise on the sport.

Early on, he said that a hallmark of a coaching was knowing what to change, what to leave alone.
In essence a bowler goes through a series of movements to achieve a result.
Liken the movements to variables in an equation.
The goal being to arrive at the desired solution.

With so many humans there are bound to be folks that excel despite deviation from prescribed form.

Guys like Mark Baker are gifted enough to bring out your best.
Many elite bowlers never read the manual. ;)
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
Post Reply