Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb

Which layout is right for me?

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dukeblue
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Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb

Post by dukeblue »

Looking for an explanation of this one. I have drilled two short pin layouts (1 sym, 1 asym) in the past year or so and they both thump the thumb hole about 5 feet before the pins. It is clearly happening on the dry flares. Initial track line is normal and there is absolutely no rolling over the holes until the ball exits the pattern. The motion of the balls were pretty good other than the thumping. Anyone else seen something like this?

DV8 Verge - 2x45
Motiv Jackal Ghost 70x2x45

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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb

Post by 44boyd »

Are you normally high track on your regular equipment?
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb

Post by dukeblue »

44boyd wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 7:49 am Are you normally high track on your regular equipment?
I'm typically about 1-1.5 inches away from both thumb and fingers. So on the higher side but not high enough to risk hitting holes, even on pin down drillings.
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb

Post by 44boyd »

You have a lot of surface on them?
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb

Post by dukeblue »

44boyd wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 3:08 pm You have a lot of surface on them?
Nothing unusual. Fresh 2000.
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EricHartwell
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb

Post by EricHartwell »

How far apart are the flares lines in the oil?

The Motiv Jackal Ghost 70x2x45 should look like this...
dukeblue.PNG
If it doesn't, post a pic of it.

Verify your PAP on the balls in question.
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb

Post by dukeblue »

EricHartwell wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 12:49 am How far apart are the flares lines in the oil?

The Motiv Jackal Ghost 70x2x45 should look like this...dukeblue.PNG
If it doesn't, post a pic of it.

Verify your PAP on the balls in question.
Here are pictures of the ghost. I remeasured and the val is 65 I don't think is a difference maker. I don't have any video of the ghost.

I do have a video of DV8 Verge from about a year ago. White piece of tape on my PAP. I typically measure my PAP about every 3 months and it hasn't changed more than 1/4 inch in years. Looks like youtube automatically converts this to short with awful quality and I don't think you are allowed to upload video here. You can clearly here the thumping downlane.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/69x-5Za2QOo

The ball has been plugged once but I wouldn't think it would move the true location of the pin past the val. That would be over an inch movement. The ball is not rolling over the plug. Dry flares clearly on the left side of the thumb hole.
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb

Post by bowlncoach »

I have seen an article by Bill Semsprott on BTM using Blueprint to show comparison of flare lines between pin to PAP distances and his examples showed that on happening on short pin to PAP distances. It definitely scared me away from using them.
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb

Post by EricHartwell »

All bets are off on plugs and re-drills.
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb

Post by dukeblue »

I played around in blueprint for about an hour and short pin layouts with a 45 degree VAL angle all tracked over or extremely close to the thumb. On both symmetrical and asymmetrical balls. If I increased the VAL angle to 60-70 degrees it appears safe as the bottom bowtie gets lowered sufficiently.
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb

Post by MegaMav »

Short pin layout should have drill angles of at least 75*, otherwise it defeats the purpose of the low flare effect.
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb

Post by EricHartwell »

dukeblue wrote: May 6th, 2022, 4:06 pm I played around in blueprint for about an hour and short pin layouts with a 45 degree VAL angle all tracked over or extremely close to the thumb. On both symmetrical and asymmetrical balls. If I increased the VAL angle to 60-70 degrees it appears safe as the bottom bowtie gets lowered sufficiently.
Good Stuff!

Rev Dominance is getting you on this one. Couple less revs or some more speed and it wouldn't hit the thumb.

I have a few questions.
What core did you model?
What was the Drilling angle?
What is the inputted Pin to PAP?

Look at the Low Rg contour, It is not centered around the Pin.
The post drilled low Rg moved away from the Pin effectively making the post drill Pin(low Rg axis) to PAP shorter and VAL angle smaller.
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb

Post by dukeblue »

MegaMav wrote: May 6th, 2022, 11:48 pm Short pin layout should have drill angles of at least 75*, otherwise it defeats the purpose of the low flare effect.
That advice seems to contradict everything that the dual angle layout system stands for. The ability to pull multiple levers to fine tune a reaction. I respectfully disagree unless you can provide some concrete reasoning to your opinion.

With regards to this particular post, the drilling angle going from 70 to 90 provides extremely minimal differences in track flare according to blueprint. Adding 15 degrees to the drill angle is effectively reducing total hook by about a half board. I see no evidence of a 75 degree drilling angle "defeating the purpose" of a short pin position.
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb

Post by dukeblue »

EricHartwell wrote: May 7th, 2022, 12:23 am Good Stuff!

Rev Dominance is getting you on this one. Couple less revs or some more speed and it wouldn't hit the thumb.

I have a few questions.
What core did you model?
What was the Drilling angle?
What is the inputted Pin to PAP?

Look at the Low Rg contour, It is not centered around the Pin.
The post drilled low Rg moved away from the Pin effectively making the post drill Pin(low Rg axis) to PAP shorter and VAL angle smaller.
I modeled the 4 cores available in the trial version and observed similar results with each ball.
1. Mission - dry flares are directly over thumb
2. Taboo - dry flares clip the bottom of the thumb
3. Outburst - dry flares ~1/2 inch from thumb
4. 607A - dry flares ~1/2 inch from thumb

I used a drilling angle of 70. Setting the drilling angle to 90 made minimal difference. Maybe 0.5 to 1 flare less on the thumb.

Pin to PAP used was 2 inches. Pins from .75 to 3 are all in danger of hitting the thumb, keeping the angles consistent.
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb

Post by EricHartwell »

I have yet to have dry flares hitting my thumb except for a double thumb layout on a Taboo Gas mask core.
I have had plenty of balls layed out with 2 to 3" Pin to PAP.

It sure seems that with rev dominance, the low flare short pin layouts need larger drill angles And larger VAL angles.
I will keep this in mind when making layout recommendations.
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb

Post by MegaMav »

dukeblue wrote: May 7th, 2022, 3:35 am That advice seems to contradict everything that the dual angle layout system stands for. The ability to pull multiple levers to fine tune a reaction. I respectfully disagree unless you can provide some concrete reasoning to your opinion.

With regards to this particular post, the drilling angle going from 70 to 90 provides extremely minimal differences in track flare according to blueprint. Adding 15 degrees to the drill angle is effectively reducing total hook by about a half board. I see no evidence of a 75 degree drilling angle "defeating the purpose" of a short pin position.
On a short pin layout, most bowlers do not want the ball revving up until late in the hook phase.
The purpose of a low flare layout is control of the lane with a longer, smoother, hook phase.
By reducing the drill angle you are, in effect, causing the migrating axis to cross the pin to spin line earlier, which causes the ball to rev up.
I'd like to see a manufacturer's drill sheet which recommends a low flare layout with a drill angle of less than 75.
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb

Post by dukeblue »

MegaMav wrote: May 8th, 2022, 1:16 pm On a short pin layout, most bowlers do not want the ball revving up until late in the hook phase.
The purpose of a low flare layout is control of the lane with a longer, smoother, hook phase.
By reducing the drill angle you are, in effect, causing the migrating axis to cross the pin to spin line earlier, which causes the ball to rev up.
I'd like to see a manufacturer's drill sheet which recommends a low flare layout with a drill angle of less than 75.
And I was playing around with this drilling as an option on fresh sport patterns. With quite a bit of oil the the front of the lane and clean backends, I wanted to get the ball started earlier hence the smaller drill angle. The short pin to PAP measurement was to control the flare and let me stay further right on the fresh. I'll also add than Ryan Ciminelli won a PBA title throwing a short pin layout with a 70 degree drilling angle.
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb

Post by 44boyd »

Just use surface, I mean if you have 450+ revs and 21mph speed then I guess you can compare to RC
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