Ball Fit Advice

You can post any bowling related topics here.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
kajmk
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3840
Joined: October 25th, 2010, 11:41 pm
Location: Sun City Arizona

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by kajmk »

Additional references

Take a look at this product, you might also use the concept as an interim measure
https://www.bowlingindex.com/store/merc ... gory_Code=

A thread on taping, including a tiered system
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13269&p=102804&hilit=Rubber#p102804
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
jegreco516
Member
Member
Posts: 44
Joined: January 25th, 2016, 3:04 am
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by jegreco516 »

kajmk wrote: July 31st, 2021, 5:22 pm Additional references

Take a look at this product, you might also use the concept as an interim measure
https://www.bowlingindex.com/store/merc ... gory_Code=

A thread on taping, including a tiered system
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13269&p=102804&hilit=Rubber#p102804
I have tried tiered taping and I like it. I just don’t like having to adjust it when my thumb changes. If only 1 handed no-thumb bowling didn’t have to increased risk of wrist injury. I’ve tried two handed bowling and it bothers my back over time. But here’s the thing, every time I watch a bowler like Mike Fagan swing that ball do effortlessly I say to myself: “I want to do that”
User avatar
kajmk
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3840
Joined: October 25th, 2010, 11:41 pm
Location: Sun City Arizona

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by kajmk »

You are not alone in your plight.
Just my opinion, but thumb hole issues keep many bowlers from their potential and induce some to quit all together.

You mentioned your strength on the farmers carry and thats very impressive. The rest of you is probably pretty dammed strong. Its ironic that your thumb is impeding your progress and enjoyment. As they say, A chain is only as strong as its weakest link .

Insofar as your back. A weak gluteus medius muscle manifests itself as lower back pain.
According to some trainers, that muscle is neglected and often weak even in athletes.
If you do not have anatomical spinal issues, looks into the style, also conditioning the core ,(back, butt, abs)

Your back issues via the two handed style might be a blend of conditioning and technique.
Many Coachs now teach the two handed style.

Expert medical analysis of the Two Handed style
Two-Handed Delivery: Analyzing a New Technique
Thomas D. McKeon Jr., D.C.


https://www.kegeltrainingcenter.com/ktc ... -technique








May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
jegreco516
Member
Member
Posts: 44
Joined: January 25th, 2016, 3:04 am
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by jegreco516 »

kajmk wrote: July 31st, 2021, 9:27 pm You are not alone in your plight.
Just my opinion, but thumb hole issues keep many bowlers from their potential and induce some to quit all together.

You mentioned your strength on the farmers carry and thats very impressive. The rest of you is probably pretty dammed strong. Its ironic that your thumb is impeding your progress and enjoyment. As they say, A chain is only as strong as its weakest link .

Insofar as your back. A weak gluteus medius muscle manifests itself as lower back pain.
According to some trainers, that muscle is neglected and often weak even in athletes.
If you do not have anatomical spinal issues, looks into the style, also conditioning the core ,(back, butt, abs)

Your back issues via the two handed style might be a blend of conditioning and technique.
Many Coachs now teach the two handed style.

Expert medical analysis of the Two Handed style
Two-Handed Delivery: Analyzing a New Technique
Thomas D. McKeon Jr., D.C.


https://www.kegeltrainingcenter.com/ktc ... -technique








Yes, I am close to just giving up the sport due to thumb issues. I wish the two handed style didn’t involve so much trunk flexion (forward and lateral). I am a strength and conditioning coach so my glutes are in pretty good shape ;) . I herniated my L5/S1 vertebrae awhile ago which has made excess flexion difficult. If I could remain more upright the two handed style would be my go to. You would think someone would have figured out a solution to demystifying the grip pressure issue facing bowlers. It’s simple in theory but very challenging to physical execute and understand barriers. It doesn’t help that drilling is so variable from pro shop to pro shop. Combine that with the costs of plugging and drilling in order to figure this out and you have a recipe for attrition.
User avatar
kajmk
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3840
Joined: October 25th, 2010, 11:41 pm
Location: Sun City Arizona

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by kajmk »

Tomahawks suggestion about tiering the thumb hole sounds like your best bet.
Now if that concept could be applied to switch grips, that would be great!

Don't give up. Have a discussion with your local pro shops first.
If they really want to help but need assistance, refer them to Bowlingchat. We have some EXCELLENT folks here. Couldn't hurt, could it? Learning more skills will help their business and other bowlers!
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
jegreco516
Member
Member
Posts: 44
Joined: January 25th, 2016, 3:04 am
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by jegreco516 »

kajmk wrote: July 31st, 2021, 10:50 pm Tomahawks suggestion about tiering the thumb hole sounds like your best bet.
Now if that concept could be applied to switch grips, that would be great!

Don't give up. Have a discussion with your local pro shops first.
If they really want to help but need assistance, refer them to Bowlingchat. We have some EXCELLENT folks here. Couldn't hurt, could it? Learning more skills will help their business and other bowlers!
I’ll definitely try to tiered taping again. My pro shop is run by a USBC silver coach and seems very knowledgeable but I have no way of verifying if the fit is wrong or right. I am starting to think I’m doing something wrong. I don’t understand how a bowler like Wes Malot can stand in the approach and pull his thumb in and out right before he throws it, using minimal grip pressure. All the tape I use makes it impossible to do that smoothly.
ballspoint
Member
Member
Posts: 300
Joined: August 3rd, 2011, 4:44 am
Speed: 20 mph off the hand
Rev Rate: 250
Axis Tilt: 11
Axis Rotation: 70

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by ballspoint »

A video of you bowling could also could help here. I know when i have a bent wrist the weight feels like its on the thumb, even with a wrist guard i have to make sure my wrist is straight and no slight back bend.
R/H, 20 mph off hand. 250 Revs.
11* Tilt. 70* Rotation. 5 5/8 x 1"up
star
Member
Member
Posts: 53
Joined: February 1st, 2011, 1:48 pm
Positive Axis Point: 5 over 3/4 up
Speed: 17 to 18 mph off hand
Rev Rate: 400
Axis Tilt: 11
Axis Rotation: 45
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by star »

One small thing is if you are anything like me I struggle with tape in the front of the thumb hole. I have very dry hands and do not sweat at all. So tape at the front causes tearing of my skin.

What I do is drill the thumb hole round the width of the widest part of my thumb usually about 10 to 4 clock position as my thumb fits in the ball.

Then I pack the back of the hole at about the 7 o’clock position with white 3/4 inch tape until I have to almost push my thumb into the ball. It’s quite tight but for me keeps my thumb straight and relaxed.

Then I’ll put a piece of good quality bowlers tape on the back of my thumb where it touches the white tape for protection. Then I’ll bowl a few shots. Usually I may have to add half a piece more as my thumb loses a little fluid. Then I’ll add a very thin strip of Teflon tape at the 10 o’clock position so I have no friction at the front.(due to damage caused by using tape at the front originally) For me this lets me have a free swing and makes the ball almost weightless.

As you can see it’s very different from most peoples systems but without doing this I seriously struggled like you and contemplated quitting. I was helped by a very knowledgeable ex PBA pro who’s no longer with us, to get this right so all I can say is persevere as this game is too beautiful to quit.

You may just need to do something completely out of the box that only works for you. Just remember there are no fixed rules when getting a good feel.

I hope you find your own way but talk to the better bowlers and don’t be afraid to experiment. Good luck.
jegreco516
Member
Member
Posts: 44
Joined: January 25th, 2016, 3:04 am
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by jegreco516 »

star wrote: August 1st, 2021, 9:34 pm One small thing is if you are anything like me I struggle with tape in the front of the thumb hole. I have very dry hands and do not sweat at all. So tape at the front causes tearing of my skin.

What I do is drill the thumb hole round the width of the widest part of my thumb usually about 10 to 4 clock position as my thumb fits in the ball.

Then I pack the back of the hole at about the 7 o’clock position with white 3/4 inch tape until I have to almost push my thumb into the ball. It’s quite tight but for me keeps my thumb straight and relaxed.

Then I’ll put a piece of good quality bowlers tape on the back of my thumb where it touches the white tape for protection. Then I’ll bowl a few shots. Usually I may have to add half a piece more as my thumb loses a little fluid. Then I’ll add a very thin strip of Teflon tape at the 10 o’clock position so I have no friction at the front.(due to damage caused by using tape at the front originally) For me this lets me have a free swing and makes the ball almost weightless.

As you can see it’s very different from most peoples systems but without doing this I seriously struggled like you and contemplated quitting. I was helped by a very knowledgeable ex PBA pro who’s no longer with us, to get this right so all I can say is persevere as this game is too beautiful to quit.

You may just need to do something completely out of the box that only works for you. Just remember there are no fixed rules when getting a good feel.

I hope you find your own way but talk to the better bowlers and don’t be afraid to experiment. Good luck.
My hands are the exact opposite; They gets very sweaty and clammy. I will try to add more tape in the back and see how it goes. Thanks for the tip
boomer
Member
Member
Posts: 305
Joined: October 5th, 2012, 3:47 pm
THS Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 6 3/16 x 1/2 up
Speed: 13.8 at pindeck
Rev Rate: 230
Preferred Company: Storm (it smells pretty)

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by boomer »

kajmk wrote: July 31st, 2021, 10:50 pm
Now if that concept could be applied to switch grips, that would be great!

Why couldn't it? Just tape the grip and switch it from ball to ball as needed. I have three thumb-plugs for mine that I can use depending on my thumb. One of the first things I do, in fact, is to check my thumb in my "standard" thumb plug.
User avatar
kajmk
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3840
Joined: October 25th, 2010, 11:41 pm
Location: Sun City Arizona

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by kajmk »

boomer wrote: August 2nd, 2021, 3:25 pm Why couldn't it? Just tape the grip and switch it from ball to ball as needed. I have three thumb-plugs for mine that I can use depending on my thumb. One of the first things I do, in fact, is to check my thumb in my "standard" thumb plug.
Good point as always, and I would definitely do it.
I was wondering if the grip itself could be customized and replicated.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
TomaHawk
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 587
Joined: July 19th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by TomaHawk »

kajmk wrote: August 4th, 2021, 6:06 pm I was wondering if the grip itself could be customized and replicated.
Drilling into an interchangeable thumb slug is not much different than drilling a thumb hole in a urethane slug. The only difference, a little extra care must be taken in terms of the depth that the hole is drilled. If a person wants a similar feel from ball to ball (who wouldn't), the interchangeables are the way to go, especially, when it comes to tiered and oval thumb holes.

While we're on the topic, one of the most difficult aspects of drilling a thumb hole is replicating the amount of bevel from a customer's drilled ball to another ball. Bevel is not only measured in radius, but also in depth. Bevel is specific to that particular user as well, some people prefer a lot of bevel, others might not have any bevel at all. Interchangeables also address that issue as well, the feel of the thumb hole will be the same from ball to ball.
User avatar
kajmk
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3840
Joined: October 25th, 2010, 11:41 pm
Location: Sun City Arizona

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by kajmk »

Opinion and impression.
This case is one example of the complexities or challenges of our sport.
The creator of this thread jegreco516 is a much stronger than average man, yet he is vexed by the fact we are the only sport where we insert fingers and or thumb inside the ball.
He carries double his body weight doing farmers carries!!! Very strong!!

No doubt when he holds the ball in the palm of his hand, it feels light, yet configure his hand and fingers to insert them in a Bowler's grip and his hand is very challenged.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
jegreco516
Member
Member
Posts: 44
Joined: January 25th, 2016, 3:04 am
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by jegreco516 »

kajmk wrote: August 5th, 2021, 2:45 am Opinion and impression.
This case is one example of the complexities or challenges of our sport.
The creator of this thread jegreco516 is a much stronger than average man, yet he is vexed by the fact we are the only sport where we insert fingers and or thumb inside the ball.
He carries double his body weight doing farmers carries!!! Very strong!!

No doubt when he holds the ball in the palm of his hand, it feels light, yet configure his hand and fingers to insert them in a Bowler's grip and his hand is very challenged.
It is honestly one of the most frustrating things I’ve experienced (in sports). I’m sure this situation happens to other people and they either just exert excess grip pressure and are fine with the results, or just give up on the sport for another. This challenge makes no sense to me. If only my back was able to handle other styles
TomaHawk
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 587
Joined: July 19th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by TomaHawk »

I hate to say this, but bowlers are some of the weakest athletes in the world. On television they appear fairly normal, but in person they can be quite thin. People will see someone like E.J. Tackett and wonder how he develops such tremendous power. Michael Fagan is thin as a rail.

So, where do they get the leverage? How do they generate power, rev, and speed? It comes from timing, balance, a straight swing, and a relaxed release.

I have a saying about bowling: "It's so easy, it's hard".

Let's look at walking a tight rope for example. Is walking a tight rope easy or difficult? Answer: It's easy. All a person has to do is walk a straight line. Simple enough, right? But, we all know, walking a tight rope is difficult. How can it be so easy and so difficult at the same time? Walking a tight rope is 99.9% mental. It's the mental aspect of waling the rope that makes it so tough. Yogi Berra would have probably put it this way: "If you think you can't, you won't". Not good if you're 100 feet in the air.

Bowling at the highest levels is very similar to walking a tight rope, it is mostly mental.

It is generally accepted among the bowling community, the fit of the ball is critical in terms of not having to hold onto the ball tightly. But, to the contrary, I know bowlers who can throw the most ill-fitting bowling equipment I have ever seen. Oversized thumb holes, oversized finger holes, spans that are too short, and spans that are too long. It is very difficult not to judge them because they score big, real big. There is one common denominator those types of bowler seem to have though, the mental game to succeed. They think they can, so they do.
jegreco516
Member
Member
Posts: 44
Joined: January 25th, 2016, 3:04 am
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by jegreco516 »

TomaHawk wrote: August 6th, 2021, 1:52 am I hate to say this, but bowlers are some of the weakest athletes in the world. On television they appear fairly normal, but in person they can be quite thin. People will see someone like E.J. Tackett and wonder how he develops such tremendous power. Michael Fagan is thin as a rail.

So, where do they get the leverage? How do they generate power, rev, and speed? It comes from timing, balance, a straight swing, and a relaxed release.

I have a saying about bowling: "It's so easy, it's hard".

Let's look at walking a tight rope for example. Is walking a tight rope easy or difficult? Answer: It's easy. All a person has to do is walk a straight line. Simple enough, right? But, we all know, walking a tight rope is difficult. How can it be so easy and so difficult at the same time? Walking a tight rope is 99.9% mental. It's the mental aspect of waling the rope that makes it so tough. Yogi Berra would have probably put it this way: "If you think you can't, you won't". Not good if you're 100 feet in the air.

Bowling at the highest levels is very similar to walking a tight rope, it is mostly mental.

It is generally accepted among the bowling community, the fit of the ball is critical in terms of not having to hold onto the ball tightly. But, to the contrary, I know bowlers who can throw the most ill-fitting bowling equipment I have ever seen. Oversized thumb holes, oversized finger holes, spans that are too short, and spans that are too long. It is very difficult not to judge them because they score big, real big. There is one common denominator those types of bowler seem to have though, the mental game to succeed. They think they can, so they do.
My mental confidence washed away as soon as I saw Josh Blanchard fly across the foul line with his ball. Since the grip pressure feels too high, and my hand feels weak, I am afraid to take a full swing. I’ve been sticking to foul line drills to build up my confidence buts it’s difficult for me since the grip feels off. I am pretty confident my pro shop got it at least 90%+ correct. The fit is comfortable. I know how to use tape and how to apply thumb pressure. I often ask myself, this should be so simple…why can’t I do it.
User avatar
kajmk
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3840
Joined: October 25th, 2010, 11:41 pm
Location: Sun City Arizona

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by kajmk »

I have often advised bowlers to study the elite lady bowlers. In simple terms, most of them have to be technically proficient which is not to say the men aren't.
The elite are elegant athletes using the laws of physics and not fighting them.
Another study philosopy is to find elite bowlers with your body type.
Jeff Lizzi comes to mind because according to one telecast, he bench pressed 450 at the time.
A sword analogy, in an old movie about the Crusades, King Richard tries to impress Saladin by cutting an iron bar with his sword. Saladin, unimpressed tosses A silk scarf in the air an one of his men lets the scarf land on his sword slicing the scarf in half. You showed me the strength of your arm, not the sharpness of your blade.

Referring back to the wiki article submitted by Mattinthehat, see Mo's method of instilling trust.
Also the J R Raymond drills. There is always some force applied, but the direction of thumb pressure is critical, the finger pressure keeps the ball on the hand and the ball is rolled off the fingers, the less force, the faster the exit. You have to instill and learn trust.

A top bowler and PSO showed me how much pressure he applies in his grip, he held my wrist, there was very little pressure, like he was holding a raw egg or bird. He is also a very strong man, but he is a finesse power.
Swings with effortless power not powerless effort.

It would be beneficial if you could work with a buddy, simply swing and roll, like in a pro shop when you've just had a ball drilled. How long will it take? A friend of mine once asked me, "how long is a piece of string". Think of phrases or examples that resonate with you.

Remember the Indiana Jones movie with the leap of faith?

May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
jegreco516
Member
Member
Posts: 44
Joined: January 25th, 2016, 3:04 am
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by jegreco516 »

kajmk wrote: August 6th, 2021, 2:45 am I have often advised bowlers to study the elite lady bowlers. In simple terms, most of them have to be technically proficient which is not to say the men aren't.
The elite are elegant athletes using the laws of physics and not fighting them.
Another study philosopy is to find elite bowlers with your body type.
Jeff Lizzi comes to mind because according to one telecast, he bench pressed 450 at the time.
A sword analogy, in an old movie about the Crusades, King Richard tries to impress Saladin by cutting an iron bar with his sword. Saladin, unimpressed tosses A silk scarf in the air an one of his men lets the scarf land on his sword slicing the scarf in half. You showed me the strength of your arm, not the sharpness of your blade.

Referring back to the wiki article submitted by Mattinthehat, see Mo's method of instilling trust.
Also the J R Raymond drills. There is always some force applied, but the direction of thumb pressure is critical, the finger pressure keeps the ball on the hand and the ball is rolled off the fingers, the less force, the faster the exit. You have to instill and learn trust.

A top bowler and PSO showed me how much pressure he applies in his grip, he held my wrist, there was very little pressure, like he was holding a raw egg or bird. He is also a very strong man, but he is a finesse power.
Swings with effortless power not powerless effort.

It would be beneficial if you could work with a buddy, simply swing and roll, like in a pro shop when you've just had a ball drilled. How long will it take? A friend of mine once asked me, "how long is a piece of string". Think of phrases or examples that resonate with you.

Remember the Indiana Jones movie with the leap of faith?

Of course I remember Indiana Jones! I will keep working at it. Interestingly, I don’t actually feel much work being done by my fingers to hold the ball…only the thumb (mostly the thumb). This is why all of those practice drills rolling the ball without the thumb seem useless to me. The addition of the thumb changes everything
User avatar
kajmk
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3840
Joined: October 25th, 2010, 11:41 pm
Location: Sun City Arizona

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by kajmk »

As Lt Columbo would say One more thing ...


I don't think this was mentioned
Thumb pitch and size test test occurs about 1:35 into the video by Ron Hoppe
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11289&p=87606&hilit=Added#p87606
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
jegreco516
Member
Member
Posts: 44
Joined: January 25th, 2016, 3:04 am
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Ball Fit Advice

Post by jegreco516 »

kajmk wrote: August 8th, 2021, 2:57 am As Lt Columbo would say One more thing ...


I don't think this was mentioned
Thumb pitch and size test test occurs about 1:35 into the video by Ron Hoppe
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11289&p=87606&hilit=Added#p87606
Yea I can’t do that unless I really squeeze. Ron makes it look so easy to hold that ball with just the thumb. Maybe I need more forward pitch ?
Post Reply