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 Post subject: Not sure if this is the best idea
 Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 7:19 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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Are double thumb layouts advisable for low tilt, low rotation, speed dominant players?

My step father is bowling the 2 ball challenge league viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7830 and will be drilling his stuff up next week. All we know about the patterns right now is that it will most likely be one short and one long WTBA pattern. In the back of my mind, I'm thinking that a layout that burns tilt with a low tilt bowler may not be a good idea.

If a double thumb layout is not advisable, what should I do? The ball in question is a DV8 Brutal Nightmare

Here are approximates:

Right Handed
10 degrees of tilt
20 degrees of axis rotation
18 MPH off the hand
250 RPM
5 3/8 right by 1/2 up axis

Thanks in Advance


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 Post subject: Re: Not sure if this is the best idea
 Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 7:37 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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AJCZAR wrote:
Are double thumb layouts advisable for low tilt, low rotation, speed dominant players?

My step father is bowling the 2 ball challenge league viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7830 and will be drilling his stuff up next week. All we know about the patterns right now is that it will most likely be one short and one long WTBA pattern. In the back of my mind, I'm thinking that a layout that burns tilt with a low tilt bowler may not be a good idea.

If a double thumb layout is not advisable, what should I do? The ball in question is a DV8 Brutal Nightmare

Here are approximates:

Right Handed
10 degrees of tilt
20 degrees of axis rotation
18 MPH off the hand
250 RPM
5 3/8 right by 1/2 up axis

Thanks in Advance

Yes. Here is what Mo said when I had those specs:
Mo Pinel wrote:
elgavachon wrote:
AROUND 10 DEGREES TILT. THE ROTATION VARYS FROM NONE TO 45 DEGREES


Thanks for the info. My initial observations include very little rotation and tilt, and slightly speed dominant.

"Double Thumb" drillings are definitely a good choice.

Your "sweet spot" analysis looks like this. Slightly speed dominant starts you at 85* sum of angles. + 15* for very little axis rotation and tilt. The result is 100* + 20* to create an arsenal. Asymmetrics are preferred. Use big balance holes in P3 and P4 position. Not much polished equipment.

Your basic layout is 75* / 3 1/4" / 25* with a P3 hole. Always use a much larger drilling angle than angle to the VAL (2:1 to 3:1 ratio).


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 Post subject: Re: Not sure if this is the best idea
 Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 7:41 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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Thanks Elgavachon, as always.


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 Post subject: Re: Not sure if this is the best idea
 Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:07 am Post Number: #4 Post
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I came across this thread searching double thumb layouts for low tilt bowlers.

I recently purchased a hyroad pearl and went with my drillers recommendation: 75 x 4 x 30. I was shocked at how straight the ball was after seeing people hooking the lane with theirs and seeing a sharp breakpoint. After a p1 and a piece of tape on the pin I discovered the ball was standing up at the breakpoint and just rolling end over end. Major hook set. Many ten pins.

Needless to say not the reaction I wanted it for. A friend with slightly higher tilt and revs double thumbed his and the ball is nasty.

I'm tempted to try a DT but am afraid I'll have a harder revving straight ball than I have now.

With all that said can someone elaborate on how a DT can be utilized by low tilt, lower rotation bowlers?

_________________
Rev rate ~ 350
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up


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 Post subject: Re: Not sure if this is the best idea
 Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:46 am Post Number: #5 Post
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Ok...I do not have the experience that a lot of guys on here do but I can see several problems in your post.

Now in your last reply you mentioned you did not see a "sharp breakpoint." This is VERY common for those bowlers with very low tilt. You have very low tilt so therefore you will not see a strongly defined breakpoint, regardless of drill or ball selection. Strong asymmetrical cores will help strengthen the reaction at the breakpoint but it is doubtful you will ever achieve a true sharp breakpoint reaction.

You also mentioned in your last reply that you were using a hyroad pearl. The Hyroad Pearl is a symmetrical ball with a pearl resin shell...both things you want to avoid. Symmetrical balls have longer transitions and thus are smoother in reaction...again, not what you wanted. Lastly the pearl coverstock is a definite no no for speed dominant bowlers unless you want to become familiar with a 500 grit Siaair pad...and doing that will again smooth out the ball reaction and decrease the sharpness of your breakpoint.

Also, keep in mind that when using the dual angle layout on a symmetrical ball, the mass bias ends up in the thumbhole unless a large weighthole is used so the initial drill angle you list will most likely not be the true drilling angle. Understanding this, the initial drill angle is probably larger than the 75* you list which will again get the ball further down the lane before it wants to do anything.

My suggestion for you is a ball similar to the Reax version 2 and use a layout similar to what I use on my Solid LevRG and my old Hammer Infection....70 x 2-1/2 x 50. I am using weaker balls because my ball speed is lower than your's but our rev rates are similar. My tilt is slightly higher as well.

Again these are my suggestions and should be in line with what the other guys are going to say.

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 Post subject: Re: Not sure if this is the best idea
 Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:30 am Post Number: #6 Post
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dougsterner wrote:
Ok...I do not have the experience that a lot of guys on here do but I can see several problems in your post.

Now in your last reply you mentioned you did not see a "sharp breakpoint." This is VERY common for those bowlers with very low tilt. You have very low tilt so therefore you will not see a strongly defined breakpoint, regardless of drill or ball selection. Strong asymmetrical cores will help strengthen the reaction at the breakpoint but it is doubtful you will ever achieve a true sharp breakpoint reaction.
I find that asymetricals actually have weaker break points for me and Mo has advised me to use very high angles with very low flare pins. My Primal Rage, Tribal, Wrecker, and IQTP all have sharper breakpoints than any of my asyms do. I was remeasured with 8* tilt the other day. I've been throwing 18-20 mph consistently over the past month and I'm up a few revs to around 375. Mo estimated me at 55* rotation in Parkersburg but I'm probably down 5-10* right now because I'm playing straighter up the boards these days. I've always preferred syms actually.

You also mentioned in your last reply that you were using a hyroad pearl. The Hyroad Pearl is a symmetrical ball with a pearl resin shell...both things you want to avoid. Symmetrical balls have longer transitions and thus are smoother in reaction...again, not what you wanted. Lastly the pearl coverstock is a definite no no for speed dominant bowlers unless you want to become familiar with a 500 grit Siaair pad...and doing that will again smooth out the ball reaction and decrease the sharpness of your breakpoint.
I've seen several low tilt guys getting defined moves at the breakpoint with their HRPs actually. A slower speed, lower rev, same tilt friend has one 75 x 4.75 x 40 and his is quite sharp at the point. I'm trading mine in and getting another one but want to make sure the layout works. There have been some threads stating DT layouts are ok for lower tilt guys. However, our THS is 38 ft and we often encounter carry down from open play or women's leagues so I often struggle matching up. I have always preferred polished pearl balls. Always!! A 500 pad and me don't match. So I'm considering a 5" pin to PAP ring in my middle with a 50* Val and hole down the Val on the new HRP unless I fully understand how DTs are okay for lower tilt bowlers. I'm guessing its good for speed dominant, lower tilt guys and better for heavier and/or longer patterns???

Also, keep in mind that when using the dual angle layout on a symmetrical ball, the mass bias ends up in the thumbhole unless a large weighthole is used so the initial drill angle you list will most likely not be the true drilling angle. Understanding this, the initial drill angle is probably larger than the 75* you list which will again get the ball further down the lane before it wants to do anything.
All of my sym layouts are mapped using the thumb as PSA if no hole is present. When holes are used I always spin the ball on a Determinator and scribe the true PSA location so those HRP numbers were actual post drill numbers. What I'm saying here Doug is that the ball is transitioning immediately at the breakpoint and rolling out........no continuation.

My suggestion for you is a ball similar to the Reax version 2 and use a layout similar to what I use on my Solid LevRG and my old Hammer Infection....70 x 2-1/2 x 50. I am using weaker balls because my ball speed is lower than your's but our rev rates are similar. My tilt is slightly higher as well.

Again these are my suggestions and should be in line with what the other guys are going to say.

I do sincerely appreciate the help and everyone's patience with me as I learn.

_________________
Rev rate ~ 350
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up


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 Post subject: Re: Not sure if this is the best idea
 Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:10 am Post Number: #7 Post
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Low tilt bowlers usually use more symmetricals than asymmetricals because symmetricals have longer hook zones delaying the ball entering the roll phase. Therefore, it gives them more continuation until the carrydown gets them and they start leaving corner pins. At that point they should go to an asymmetrical because the asym. will respond to the friction faster carrying the ten pin when the symmetrical will not on the carrydown.

The lesson for low tilt bowlers is.......start with your symmetrical until you start leaving corners. Then, switch to your asym. to carry the corner.......................


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 Post subject: Re: Not sure if this is the best idea
 Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:36 am Post Number: #8 Post
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Mo your reply confirms my experience!! Reax 2 is now my "go to" ball for late games. I cannot say enough good about the roll, hit, and carry late in sets and abused patterns.

It has me super excited for the Reax 2 Pearl but Im a little skeptical about layout........which is normal!

_________________
Rev rate ~ 350
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up


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 Post subject: Re: Not sure if this is the best idea
 Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:08 am Post Number: #9 Post
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mattypizon wrote:
Mo your reply confirms my experience!! Reax 2 is now my "go to" ball for late games. I cannot say enough good about the roll, hit, and carry late in sets and abused patterns.

It has me super excited for the Reax 2 Pearl but Im a little skeptical about layout........which is normal!


What are your current layouts in the ReaX version 2 solids?


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 Post subject: Re: Not sure if this is the best idea
 Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 5:13 am Post Number: #10 Post
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90 x 2.5 x 55 no hole.

_________________
Rev rate ~ 350
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up


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 Post subject: Re: Not sure if this is the best idea
 Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:04 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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After watching the Bowlers Deals video of the Reax 2 Pearl I'll say it now.........I'm HOOKED!!!

Would love an earlier, more defined motion than my Reax 2.

Thinking something like 75 x 2 1/4 x 50 P3 but I'm skeptical.

Help Mo!!

_________________
Rev rate ~ 350
Speed 17.5 at foul line
Tilt 8*
Rotation ~ 55*
PAP 4 1/4 right x 1 up


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