Timing

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Timing

Post by Mo Pinel » October 4th, 2012, 2:01 pm

Timing is NOT related to when the bowler pushes the ball out. The bowler will push the ball out in competition when they are ready. Timing is related to:

1) Grip pressure
2) The length of the hinge
3) The half period of the pendulum

This should stir the pot a little.

Increase the timing window by increasing the flat spot to improve timing.

OH BOY!

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Re: Timing

Post by Triplicate » October 4th, 2012, 8:44 pm

Timing has an awful lot to do with the outcome of a raindance. :!:

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.
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Re: Timing

Post by donw » October 4th, 2012, 9:58 pm

Mo--Please say more about the three essentials of timing you posted.

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Re: Timing

Post by Triplicate » October 4th, 2012, 10:43 pm

I like the way Mark Baker identified timing in his book "The Game Changer"

His focus was on the back swing being parallel to the floor at the moment you begin your slide.

This moment was the only spot where the Pro's, and most of the best Armatures were identical in their delivery. Quite a remarkable finding.
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Re: Timing

Post by crashin12x » October 5th, 2012, 3:34 am

Mo Pinel wrote:
Increase the timing window by increasing the flat spot to improve timing.



So what are the recommended drills in increasing the flat spot?
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Re: Timing

Post by jmatthews » October 5th, 2012, 4:08 am

Mo Pinel wrote:Timing is NOT related to when the bowler pushes the ball out. The bowler will push the ball out in competition when they are ready. Timing is related to:

1) Grip pressure
2) The length of the hinge
3) The half period of the pendulum

This should stir the pot a little.

Increase the timing window by increasing the flat spot to improve timing.

OH BOY!
Mo, Would you care to elaberate on your 3 points. When I think of elongating the flat spot I think of the slide, finishing position and knee continuation. Could you please explaiain how grip pressure and the length of the hinge could impede this. And when you say half period of the pendulum are you refering to the bottom apex of the arm swing?

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Re: Timing

Post by MatthiasScheinert » October 5th, 2012, 11:57 am

I watched some video footage of young children and checked the time it took to get the ball from the lowest point of the swing, took that time and compared it to the time it took the ball to return to the lowest point of the swing (release). This is half the distance of the pendulum swing. When the ball is driven by physics both times should be identical. This would say, no muscle included. I have to say that only a small group fall into that category. So where should I start? Grip?
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Re: Timing

Post by Mo Pinel » October 5th, 2012, 1:42 pm

In response to the question about the "flat spot", the flat spot is equal to the length of the slide and the distance the knee travels after the foot stops. Lengthening the flat spot can be achieved by lengthening either the slide or the knee continuation, or both. I suggest starting with knee continuation as the best way to increase the "flat spot". Increasing knee continuation tends to slightly increase the length of the slide at the same time.

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Re: Timing

Post by guruU2 » October 5th, 2012, 3:18 pm

Mo-
Perhaps it would be productive if you explain, from your perspective, the value of "knee continuation".
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Re: Timing

Post by steve s » October 6th, 2012, 4:03 am

In response to knee continuation I teach .... butt down ....this is the physical action of the body to create the bending of the knee...It is easy for a student to comprehend this action when trying to teach a knee bend .....Steve S

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Re: Timing

Post by Dax » November 10th, 2012, 11:31 pm

Rhythm is more important than "timing" - IMO
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Re: Timing

Post by dR3w » November 14th, 2012, 4:42 pm

Look at 2:05 of this video to see Knee continuation:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Timing

Post by bowlaj » November 15th, 2012, 2:41 pm

jmatthews wrote:Mo, Would you care to elaberate on your 3 points. When I think of elongating the flat spot I think of the slide, finishing position and knee continuation. Could you please explaiain how grip pressure and the length of the hinge could impede this. And when you say half period of the pendulum are you refering to the bottom apex of the arm swing?
Mo...I thought starting the swing later resulting in later timing...or starting with the hinge further back?

Half period of the pendulum ? ? Grip pressure ? ?

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Re: Timing

Post by dR3w » November 15th, 2012, 5:24 pm

bowlaj wrote: Mo...I thought starting the swing later resulting in later timing...or starting with the hinge further back?

Half period of the pendulum ? ? Grip pressure ? ?

Explained in See It Feel It Do It?
I can probably explain half period of a pendulum. Any pendulum system such as a child on a swing has a natural frequency. Basically if you were to pull the person on the swing back 5 feet and time the duration it takes for them to swing out and back, and repeat that for a 1 foot pull back, the time wii be the same. It is a property of the whole system, the length of the ropes of the swing and mass of the child. Now this assumes a whole lot, like no friction, the child doesn't shift her body, etc. But in the case of bowling, the amount of time that the ball will take to fall from the highest point in the backswing to the bottom of the swing will be the same regardless of how high your backswing is, assuming that you have a loose arm swing. Does that make sense? People who throw 16lb vs 15lb, will have a different pendulum half period (or full period). Also, the length of someone's arm, makes a difference. One factor that complicates the matter is that the hinge point for the pendulum will move closer to the ground as the body goes into the slide. But that is more than I want to think about.

Grip pressure? Well i'm not so sure, but with minimal grip pressure your arm swing will be freer, and your ability to have a loose pendulum swing with be better. So people who have to death squeeze the ball will have muscle tension in their arm, and thus limit their ability to have a pendulum arm swing.

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Re: Timing

Post by BowlingCoach » November 28th, 2012, 11:50 am

Interesting discussion on one of the Holy Grail's of bowling instruction.

From my analysis, how the ball starts (when and how) impacts directly on the amount of forward flexion (forward spine tilt) a player has into the 2-3 step sequence as well as the amount of foot speed, length of the steps and other influences directly on the fluidity, rhythm and timing of a bowler.

When I assess a player, I evaluate a player's ability to transfer energy efficiently from the body to the bowling ball. Timing, from my perspective, is grounded in energy transfer. This relates to a player's foot speed, torso angle (lateral, forward and rotational angle) and knee angle into the slide. Trunk angle and knee angle are functions of how the player moves the ball into the start and how the ball is moved. As the bowler slides, torso rotation adds elastic energy and is most efficient when the bowler is sliding at the same time as the downswing is happening. Finally, as the bowler completes the slide, where the ball is located, knee continuation, follow-through direction and extension of the arm to maximize the flat spot complete the efficient energy transfer. Most elite players' downswings coincide with the slide. So, from my perspective, the swing start impacts the torso position early in the approach, which can impact energy transfer. This is the impact of swing start timing. A ball that moves up and away from a player will nearly always lead to a more erect upper body to maintain balance. This impacts fluidity, trunk position and foot speed. On the other side, when the elbow remains close and the player uses a hinge like movement, the trunk will more forward with the ball setting-up the player for increased accuracy, fluidity, faster foot speed, etc.

I wrote about this in 2009 where I argue and demonstrate that how the swing start impacts four essential components including: (*) target accuracy (*) grip pressure (*) body tension (*) ball speed

If interested, you can read this at http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/sto ... ifeb09.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, with an energy transfer perspective, I am looking at the swing start (when and how the ball is moved), ball at the top of the swing in relation to the slide and when the ball reaches a position where the slide foot stops. These are three timing elements that impact energy transfer and are vital for assessment. This is a model I utilize to help players improve. The key is for coaches to have a consistent model grounded in biomechanical comprehension as well as cause and effect sequences.

I am interested in discussing the pendulum swing which in my opinion is not an accurate depiction of the swing movement throughout the swing. A good hinge swing start keeps the elbow close to the body with the arm bent until it reaches the side leg where the arm is fully extended. An object that remains close to the body will certainly require less resistance and lead to a more relaxed entry into the swing. Moreover, from an analysis perspective, a pendulum swing does not accurately illustrate the swing movement of an elite bowler, who bends the elbow in the downswing and then extends this arm fully at the end of the release. And, without a long extension of the arm, a flat spot will be minimalized with a good amount of slide and knee continuation. The shape from the end of the downswing through release can still be minimized by the end of the release through to the follow-through movement.

Clearly, a bad fit can also influence timing due to the increased grip pressure of a poor fit leads to a poor swing, poor release, poor fluidity and an inability to extend the arm fully at release, impacting the flat spot.

Balance and leverage is directly related to knee continuation and natural trail leg distance away from the slide foot. This is a result of lateral spine tilt and forward spine tilt.
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Re: Timing

Post by LabRat » November 28th, 2012, 1:52 pm

dR3w wrote: I can probably explain half period of a pendulum. Any pendulum system such as a child on a swing has a natural frequency. Basically if you were to pull the person on the swing back 5 feet and time the duration it takes for them to swing out and back, and repeat that for a 1 foot pull back, the time wii be the same. It is a property of the whole system, the length of the ropes of the swing and mass of the child. Now this assumes a whole lot, like no friction, the child doesn't shift her body, etc. But in the case of bowling, the amount of time that the ball will take to fall from the highest point in the backswing to the bottom of the swing will be the same regardless of how high your backswing is, assuming that you have a loose arm swing.
This is not true, even for a free swing. The period of a pendulum is only approximately independent of the angle it swings through for small angles. Google "pendulum small angle approximation".
The model falls apart badly for angles > 90*. The period of a 90* swing is about 20% longer than a small angle.
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Re: Timing

Post by sprocket » December 2nd, 2012, 7:42 pm

I think because I bowl thumbless and have a short backswing, my timing has to be driven by two main things:
1) My legs have to generate some foot speed in order to gain ball speed. This is because, without much armswing, the ball speed is not going to come from a long armswing.

2) Only my first two steps of a five step delivery can be of "normal" length and normal speed, which to me means a short first step and a longer second step. The third and fourth steps must compensate for the short backswing. The ball will quickly reach the top of the backswing and it can't just hang there. That would require excessive muscle. So in my case the third step is shorter, and the fourth, pivot step is very short and I must drive very hard off this step. My slide is then longer.

The pivot step is #1 most important thing for me. When it's right, meaning very short with a lot of drive, I have good speed and power. When it's wrong I have NOTHING. The older I get (I'm 48) the harder it is to do right. If I give up bowling thumbless it won't be because it takes muscle to hold the ball. It will be because I can't drive off my pivot step right anymore. I'm not that great anyway. Two years ago I averaged 217. I took last year off. This year has been a big slump and only now is my game starting to come around.

I'm not sure how any of this relates to the three points Mo was making, but maybe it all still relates.
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Re: Timing

Post by jakester » December 2nd, 2012, 10:19 pm

Mo Pinel wrote:Timing is NOT related to when the bowler pushes the ball out. The bowler will push the ball out in competition when they are ready. Timing is related to:

1) Grip pressure
2) The length of the hinge
3) The half period of the pendulum

This should stir the pot a little.

Increase the timing window by increasing the flat spot to improve timing.

OH BOY!
All else being equal, the only time I feel I have a timing issue is if my feet get fast. My grip pressure and hinge are very consistent. I am probably more aware of grip pressure than anyone I know. I see a lot of guys with great form lose their accuracy from rushing the line like a bull.

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Re: Timing

Post by ChrisTan » March 27th, 2016, 8:25 am

Can i resurrect this topic ? I'd like to read more opinions from more people !!
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Re: Timing

Post by 56bird » March 27th, 2016, 2:40 pm

A note from the weeds. I think so much of this comes from muscle or the lack of it pulling the ball down from the top of the swing. Had a light bulb moment in practice yesterday. The lanes were hooking more and earlier than usual and I was having a heck of a time. Couldn't post shots, couldn't seem to stop pulling the ball. I think I was trying to overcome lane friction by using arm and shoulder power to generate ball speed. I went thru my usual list of things to check when I'm struggling and told myself "arm and shoulder DEAD from the top of the swing on". Whoa! I realized I've regressed back into the habit of muscling the ball down from the top of the swing *not just that day but all the time*.

Now, fixing this didn't speed the ball up, but it *did* provide the accuracy, power and consistency to play the shot I was given.

I've been putting up SCORES in league lately, which makes me think of one of my philosophies: "Success is one of the greatest roadblocks to progress."

The work continues.

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