Layout Advice

Which layout is right for me?

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weberd72
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Posts: 37
Joined: July 26th, 2021, 4:36 pm
Sport Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over by 3/8 up
Speed: 19 (Specto)
Rev Rate: 350
Axis Tilt: 25
Axis Rotation: 70
Heavy Oil Ball: Trail Blazer Solid, Intimidator Pearl, Hero Solid
Medium Oil Ball: Obsession Tour, Conspiracy Theory, GB4 Pearl
Light Oil Ball: Raw Hammer Black
Preferred Company: Free Agent
Location: Palm Beach, FL

Layout Advice

Post by weberd72 »

Hi Everyone,

I'm looking for some layout advice for normal conditions and sport conditions. I did some of the math myself from the Wiki, but I'm not sure if I'm applying things correctly. I was targeting a ratio of 1:2 and a sweet spot of 80 assuming I accounted for everything correctly. Any help is appreciated!

Here are my current specs:

Speed: 19 MPH (on Specto)
RPM: 350 (on Specto)
Tilt: 24
Rotation: 70
PAP: 4 7/8 over by 3/8 up

Thanks!

Dan
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MegaMav
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Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 14
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: Layout Advice

Post by MegaMav »

Radical Informer: 40 x 4 3/4 x 40
Total sums seem to be on, but I dont think you need to go that low of a ratio, especially on the bigger asym cores made today, after balance holes were elimintated.
weberd72
Member
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: July 26th, 2021, 4:36 pm
Sport Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over by 3/8 up
Speed: 19 (Specto)
Rev Rate: 350
Axis Tilt: 25
Axis Rotation: 70
Heavy Oil Ball: Trail Blazer Solid, Intimidator Pearl, Hero Solid
Medium Oil Ball: Obsession Tour, Conspiracy Theory, GB4 Pearl
Light Oil Ball: Raw Hammer Black
Preferred Company: Free Agent
Location: Palm Beach, FL

Re: Layout Advice

Post by weberd72 »

Thanks MegaMav for the input. Appreciate the ball advice as this was one of the balls I have been looking at. I had alot of success in the past with the older particle reactive balls of the early 2000's, so the Radical balls with the TP additives have me intrigued. I have a Conspiracy Theory with an all purpose layout slightly adjusted for my rotation and tilt, but I haven't used it too much yet. It doesn't seem to work well on house patterns for me and I have some hope it may be more successful on sport.

Longer term, I'm looking to re-build my arsenal to remove my older plugged equipment. So overall, I'd be interested in the full range of Asym, Sym, and Sport layouts.

With a recent Specto session and through my own observation, I'm noticing that most of my equipment seems to keep skidding and doesn't get into a roll with the exception of my True Motion urethane ball and a Mutant Cell that I have drilled to Layout C for Smooth Hook from the asym Radical layouts.

Shorter term, I'm looking to add two balls for a summer PBA experience league.

My weaker sym reactive ball for short PBA patterns cracked, so I was looking to replace that with a Raw Hammer Black and to add a more benchmark Asym for medium length sport patterns (I was thinking Obsession Tour for this).

The VLS spreadsheet from Storm was suggesting a 5" pin to pap, a 3 1/2" PSA to PAP, and a 2 3/8" pin buffer for the Raw Hammer Black when I modeled it after the PBA Wolf pattern. The VLS for the Obsession Tour was 4 7/8" x 4" x 2 1/4" modelling this off of the PBA Chameleon pattern.

Any thoughts are much appreciated!
weberd72
Member
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: July 26th, 2021, 4:36 pm
Sport Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over by 3/8 up
Speed: 19 (Specto)
Rev Rate: 350
Axis Tilt: 25
Axis Rotation: 70
Heavy Oil Ball: Trail Blazer Solid, Intimidator Pearl, Hero Solid
Medium Oil Ball: Obsession Tour, Conspiracy Theory, GB4 Pearl
Light Oil Ball: Raw Hammer Black
Preferred Company: Free Agent
Location: Palm Beach, FL

Re: Layout Advice

Post by weberd72 »

I have my Raw Hammer Black and Hammer Obsession Tour on hold with my pro shop. I will discuss these two layouts with them for my upcoming PBA experience league.

Anyone have any thoughts on were my dual angle ratio's and pin to pap distances would be for all of the layouts? I did some calculations on my own using the Wiki guide, but didn't find the pin to pap distances. Here is what I calculated:

Base Layout: 25 x TBD x 55
Control: 40 x TBD x 60
Long and Strong: 30 x TBD x 70
Mid Lane: 25 x TBD x 35
Totally Strong: 20 x TBD x 40

Short Sport: ?
Medium Sport ?
Long Sport?

I was looking at a video from the Kegel Training Center and was considering building an arsenal to their recommendations as I replace some of my older and plugged equipment. They were recommending:

Fresh: 2.48-2.52 RG, .03-.05 diff, solid sym pin down (I consider the Raw Hammer Black and Obsession Tour to fit here, I have a symmetric solid and pearl that fit here too but with higher RG)
Ball Up: 2.48-2.53 RG, .045+ diff, pin up asym hybrid (My Conspiracy Theory and Mutant Cell fit here)
Late Hook: 2.52+ RG, less than .045 diff, pin up sym pearl (I need to add something here; Storm HyRoad?)
Burn: 2.55+ rg, less than .035 diff, pin down with long pin (I need to add something here; Radical Counter Attack Pearl or Motiv Thrill?)

Any help is appreciated! I really want to learn how to calculate the dual angles and pin recommendations for my specs. Thanks!
weberd72
Member
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: July 26th, 2021, 4:36 pm
Sport Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over by 3/8 up
Speed: 19 (Specto)
Rev Rate: 350
Axis Tilt: 25
Axis Rotation: 70
Heavy Oil Ball: Trail Blazer Solid, Intimidator Pearl, Hero Solid
Medium Oil Ball: Obsession Tour, Conspiracy Theory, GB4 Pearl
Light Oil Ball: Raw Hammer Black
Preferred Company: Free Agent
Location: Palm Beach, FL

Re: Layout Advice

Post by weberd72 »

I went with the following layouts on my Raw Hammer Black and Obsession Tour:

Raw Hammer Black: 5" pin to pap, 3 1/2" PSA to PAP, and 2 3/8" pin buffer
Obsession Tour: 4 7/8" pin to pap, 4" PSA to PAP, and 2 1/4" pin buffer

I could still use some help with my dual angle questions so I can work on replacing my older equipment. I would be interested in learning all of the layouts for my specs above, and am especially interested in layouts for the following:

A benchmark symmetrical ball (Something like a Hero Solid)
A late hook ball (something pearl and more angular than my Quantum fire)
A burn ball (Something like a Counter Attack Pearl)

Thanks a bunch!
weberd72
Member
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: July 26th, 2021, 4:36 pm
Sport Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over by 3/8 up
Speed: 19 (Specto)
Rev Rate: 350
Axis Tilt: 25
Axis Rotation: 70
Heavy Oil Ball: Trail Blazer Solid, Intimidator Pearl, Hero Solid
Medium Oil Ball: Obsession Tour, Conspiracy Theory, GB4 Pearl
Light Oil Ball: Raw Hammer Black
Preferred Company: Free Agent
Location: Palm Beach, FL

Re: Layout Advice

Post by weberd72 »

A bit of an update on my ball progress:

I had my Hammer Big Rig Diesel re-drilled as a short pin layout some time ago. The short pin layout and the layout I posted on my Raw Hammer Black worked very well on the first sport league pattern I encountered, which was the PBA Wolf pattern.

@EricHartwell If you have any advice on the overall normal and sport layouts and if I am on the right track on figuring some of this out for myself, I would be extremely grateful. If I got the angles correct, I still need pin distance help. I'm looking to be a more knowledgeable bowler as best able. Overall I'm pretty set on equipment, but want to figure out what may work on some of the upcoming patterns and want to figure out what layouts may work on filling some gaps in the bag in the future. Thanks!
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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Advice

Post by EricHartwell »

I see a couple of things for you to keep in mind...
One is making sure you know know whether you are working with a Symmetrical or an Asymmetrical ball.
The Raw Hammer Black is a Symmetrical ball and you gave layout numbers as if it was an Asymmetrical.

The other thing I see is you are not mentioning surface preps.
The correct layout with the wrong surface will not look very good.
Where as an incorrect layout can be made to look better with a surface adjustment.

Your arsenal should have a majority of balls with dull surfaces due to the fact you get natural length with your higher tilt, rotation and speed.

Sport layouts will be lower Ratios and Strong Pin positions.
Once the sport pattern breaks down ball choices will come from the rest of your arsenal based on the feedback of your ball reactions.

Your sweetspot calculations are spot on for an Asymmetrical drilling.
Surface preps are more critical for a Symmetrical drilling.

Remember there is a range around your Sweetspot to build your arsenal.
With that said your Ratio Range is 1:1 to 1:3 and your Totals will be 60* to 100*.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
weberd72
Member
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: July 26th, 2021, 4:36 pm
Sport Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over by 3/8 up
Speed: 19 (Specto)
Rev Rate: 350
Axis Tilt: 25
Axis Rotation: 70
Heavy Oil Ball: Trail Blazer Solid, Intimidator Pearl, Hero Solid
Medium Oil Ball: Obsession Tour, Conspiracy Theory, GB4 Pearl
Light Oil Ball: Raw Hammer Black
Preferred Company: Free Agent
Location: Palm Beach, FL

Re: Layout Advice

Post by weberd72 »

Hi Eric, thanks a bunch for the advice. I really appreciate your insight. While I seem to be in the neighborhood regarding the dual angles, how does one select the ideal pin distances for those? What you say regarding the ball surface seems to make a lot of sense as I need to put 500 or 1000 surface to match up most times at the center I bowl in.

As an FYI, here's what my active arsenal currently looks like:

Symmetrical Balls:
Forrest Green Quantum: ** x 4.75" x 35 @ 1000
Fire Quantum: ** x 4.75" x 35 @ 1000 plus compound
Hammer Big Rig Diesel: ** x 2.25" x 45 @ 1000
Raw Hammer Black: ** x 5" x 30 @ 1000
Brunswick True Motion: ** x 4.5" x 35 @ 500

Asymmetrical Balls:
Hammer Obsession Tour: 45 x 4 7/8" x 30 @ 1000
Radical Conspiracy Theory: 45 x 4.25" x 25 @ 1000 plus compound (this layout was suggested to me for this ball by Mo Pinel)
Rotogrip Mutant Cell: 20 x 4.75" x 30 @ 1000 (the angles on this one are kind of outside of the range as I re-drilled to put the mass bias on the VAL)

Looking at the above, my general observations have been I always have too many symmetrical balls. From a dual angle sweet spot perspective, I don't have equipment at the higher angle range. Prior to my current lineup, all of my balls (all symetric) were kind of drilled in a lazy layout fashion at max hook 3.5" pin, around a 30 VAL angle and a balance hole. I'm not very brand specific, but my driller is a Brunswick regional staffer, so that would be his primary inventory.

All the best,

Dan Weber
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EricHartwell
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Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Layout Advice

Post by EricHartwell »

weberd72 wrote: June 14th, 2022, 11:54 pm Hi Eric, thanks a bunch for the advice. I really appreciate your insight. While I seem to be in the neighborhood regarding the dual angles, how does one select the ideal pin distances for those? "Ideal"Pin to PAP distance usually determined by the Tilt characteristic of your roll.
This is represented in the Benchmark. Higher the Tilt the Stronger the Pin Position and vice versa for the low tilt bowlers.
Then you take into consideration the Ball to be drilled and how you want it to fit into your arsenal.
What you say regarding the ball surface seems to make a lot of sense as I need to put 500 or 1000 surface to match up most times at the center I bowl in.

As an FYI, here's what my active arsenal currently looks like:

Symmetrical Balls:
Forrest Green Quantum: ** x 4.75" x 35 @ 1000
Fire Quantum: ** x 4.75" x 35 @ 1000 plus compound
Hammer Big Rig Diesel: ** x 2.25" x 45 @ 1000
Raw Hammer Black: ** x 5" x 30 @ 1000
Brunswick True Motion: ** x 4.5" x 35 @ 500

Asymmetrical Balls:
Hammer Obsession Tour: 45 x 4 7/8" x 30 @ 1000
Radical Conspiracy Theory: 45 x 4.25" x 25 @ 1000 plus compound (this layout was suggested to me for this ball by Mo Pinel)
Rotogrip Mutant Cell: 20 x 4.75" x 30 @ 1000 (the angles on this one are kind of outside of the range as I re-drilled to put the mass bias on the VAL)
Not really outside your Range when you start adding Sport type layouts to your Arsenal. It is a Long Oil set up.
Looking at the above, my general observations have been I always have too many symmetrical balls. From a dual angle sweet spot perspective, I don't have equipment at the higher angle range. Prior to my current lineup, all of my balls (all symetric) were kind of drilled in a lazy layout fashion at max hook 3.5" pin, around a 30 VAL angle and a balance hole.
I can see where having an Arsenal of all Symmetric drilled at max hook/flare helped you develop/reinforce your Speed Dominant style of bowling. I'm not very brand specific, but my driller is a Brunswick regional staffer, so that would be his primary inventory.

All the best,

Dan Weber
Comments in color above
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
weberd72
Member
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: July 26th, 2021, 4:36 pm
Sport Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 4 7/8 over by 3/8 up
Speed: 19 (Specto)
Rev Rate: 350
Axis Tilt: 25
Axis Rotation: 70
Heavy Oil Ball: Trail Blazer Solid, Intimidator Pearl, Hero Solid
Medium Oil Ball: Obsession Tour, Conspiracy Theory, GB4 Pearl
Light Oil Ball: Raw Hammer Black
Preferred Company: Free Agent
Location: Palm Beach, FL

Re: Layout Advice

Post by weberd72 »

Hi Everyone!

I'm kind of bowling in the reverse (summer versus winter leagues), so its that time of year where I'm looking at the gaps in my arsenal. In the thread I had tried to calculate this myself for the asym layouts, and I think I have the angles correct, but I don't fully understand how to calculate the symmetrical layouts or how to select the pin to PAP distances. I would like to use this information to re-look what balls I have now and decide what to retire and replace. If someone can point me in the right direction to better understand, fill in the blanks, and/or make corrections, I would be extremely grateful!

Speed: 19 MPH (on Specto)
RPM: 350 (on Specto)
Tilt: 24
Rotation: 70
PAP: 4 7/8 over by 3/8 up

Sweetspot: 80* Totals 1:2 Ratio

Asymmetrical Layouts
Totally Strong......... 20-??-40
Mid Lane............... 25-??-35
Benchmark............ 25-??-55
Long and Strong...... 30-??-70
Control................. 40-??-60
Low Flare.............. ??-??-??

Symmetrical Layouts
Benchmark ............ xx-??-??
Control ................. xx-??-??
low flare .............. xx-??-??

In regards to sports patterns, I had the following advice in this thread and in another, and I am considering both of these options as well:

Asym layout from MegaMav: "40 x 4 3/4 x 40"
Asym layout for playing up the boards from Eric: "20-5.5-55 Pin in the Middle finger on a strong Asymmetrical ball with a dull surface."

Thanks!
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