Over / Under

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Over / Under

Post by ChrisTan » March 31st, 2016, 12:00 pm

Hi, cant seem to find this in the wiki.. Perhaps someone should be so kind to explain this condition and maybe share some experience with your encounter.

Thanks !
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Re: Over / Under

Post by ads » March 31st, 2016, 12:37 pm

Did a search with over and under, returned with some relevant posts such as
viewtopic.php?p=92316#p92316" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?p=92271#p92271" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's also an article explaining what it is from Google search.
http://www.bowlingball.com/BowlVersity/ ... l-reaction" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hope these help.
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Re: Over / Under

Post by kajmk » March 31st, 2016, 3:56 pm

Some additional information from Jason Doust.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6544&hilit=Doust" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

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Re: Over / Under

Post by RobMautner » March 31st, 2016, 11:18 pm

Over/Under conditions, also called wet/dry is where the ball skids too much in the oil and hooks too violently in the dry. It can be caused by various things including maintenance or lack thereof of the oil machine, and changes in the weather; particularly humidity. The best advice I've ever hear for playing wet/dry conditions came from former US Senior Open Champion, Ron Mohr. Basically what he said was that when you encounter a wet/dry condition you have two choices: play in the wet, or play in the dry and choose your equipment accordingly. He added that those bowlers who try to play the oil line on a wet/dry condition can expect to lose 20 pins a game to the field. Good advice!

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Re: Over / Under

Post by pjape » April 1st, 2016, 5:21 pm

Chris Barnes answered this question in one of the round-table discussions in Bowlingthismonth magazine. He said his choice personally is to use an early rolling ball and play in the oil. I was personally using this strategy last night, but got into trouble a few shots that I missed right. Thankfully, though these shots drifted high, I had no splits.

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Re: Over / Under

Post by stevespo » April 1st, 2016, 5:39 pm

Rob, thanks for the tip. Always enjoy your columns in BTM.

In the past, I've tried to play that blend/transition line with mixed results. Lately, I've moved into Ron's camp and made a firm commitment to move left and go more direct with surface and a control (early reading) layout, or jump right and play as far outside as possible with more speed. I try and channel Norm Duke or Liz Johnson and have at it...

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Re: Over / Under

Post by ChrisTan » April 2nd, 2016, 6:07 am

Does over/under exist AFTER some games are played ? Or it can happen even if its freshly laid lane ? How do you identify an over/under lane without playing on it ? Does lane topography influence over/under tendency ?
Chris

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Re: Over / Under

Post by kajmk » April 2nd, 2016, 6:50 pm

ChrisTan wrote:Does over/under exist AFTER some games are played ? Or it can happen even if its freshly laid lane ? How do you identify an over/under lane without playing on it ? Does lane topography influence over/under tendency ?
One man's opinion off the top of my head, plus a few quotes and references.

How do you recognize it without playing on it?
Ask a good bowler that is bowling or has bowled for their opinion.
Warning, high scores are not the only criteria.
Watching a good bowler (one that has consistent speed and can connect the dots on the lane they intend to connect) and knowing their intent is one way. Recognizing the phases of ball motion is another. Knowledge of equipment is another.
A difficult thing is being able to see the bowler properly so as to detect a flaw in walk or swing or ...
During leagues, there are people and things in an observers way.
A long time ago, I watched a very accurate bowler someone I knew, compete in the US open during match play. He had perhaps 1 board, 1.5 board to hit down lane, sort of like what Richie Allen said about bowling on the top of an A-Frame roof.

Chris, amidst all of the jargon, remember the most important thing is to recognize what your ball is or is not doing, and when and where that is happening, side to side and front to back.

The main purpose of language is to communicate ideas and concepts from one person to another, jargon is a subset of language. What a widget or aspect is called is important, but sensual recognition of a widget or aspect when you see it is paramount.

Examine the articles on the wiki, e.g. on Ball Motion.

Oil on a lane will change even if no one throws a ball. That example is extreme, the changes in that case would be atmospheric things like humidity, temperature, topography (unless oil does not move or the surface is not porous).
Topography can also make a dry spot look slicker than it really is and a slick spot look drier than it is.
How is that so? This is where lane inspection plays an important roll and why sloping tolerance is important. The more a ball rolls downhill, the less friction will be encountered, the more it rolls uphill, the more friction will be encountered. I'm paraphrasing what was personally told to me by
Parker Bohn III, not for the sake of name dropping but to lend credence to the statement.
The human eye cannot detect that critical difference in slope unless that human wears a red cape, blue suit and leaps tall buildings in a single bound.


Every ball that is rolled changes the oil. Jason Doust explains that very well in his video.
Read Eric's very germane post Are team concepts gone? at

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11981" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Another very important thing is to know where your ball has traveled along the lane.
That is: your lay down point (knowing where you lay the ball down with respect to your ankle is VERY important; a near target, a spot down the lane, e.g. a break point , oil pattern exit; where it hit the pins, high, low, flush.
Also note the sound and sights (are the pins energized or lazy, high or low) , the path through the pins (weak - ball finished moving to much towards the 9 for and rhb, 8 for a lhb , too strong did not respect the pins, just right - it split the 8-9)

Ron's information " Ron Mohr. Basically what he said was that when you encounter a wet/dry condition you have two choices: play in the wet, or play in the dry and choose your equipment accordingly. He added that those bowlers who try to play the oil line on a wet/dry condition can expect to lose 20 pins a game to the field. Good advice!" Seems Golden to me.

Take care.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

John

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Re: Over / Under

Post by kajmk » April 2nd, 2016, 7:23 pm

RobMautner wrote:Over/Under conditions, also called wet/dry is where the ball skids too much in the oil and hooks too violently in the dry. It can be caused by various things including maintenance or lack thereof of the oil machine, and changes in the weather; particularly humidity. The best advice I've ever hear for playing wet/dry conditions came from former US Senior Open Champion, Ron Mohr. Basically what he said was that when you encounter a wet/dry condition you have two choices: play in the wet, or play in the dry and choose your equipment accordingly. He added that those bowlers who try to play the oil line on a wet/dry condition can expect to lose 20 pins a game to the field. Good advice!
Rob, I've created a Wiki Glossary entry using your post.
Note that any member may edit, so please wordsmith if you wish.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

John

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Re: Over / Under

Post by MegaMav » April 2nd, 2016, 9:11 pm

I dont agree with the advice, but what do I know, I havent won a championship.

I use more even angle ratios, medium flare Pin to PAP and plenty of surface.
If you have even a moderate amount of rev rate and rotation, you can get in the oil and blend out the transition to the dry as long as you use surface.
Avoid those "sexy" angular motions, and use surface, you'll be just fine.
Im going to keep the definition John, but remove the advice, I think there are multiple ways to attack the problem, but up to each individual user to figure out what works best for them.

What should the user do when only playing the oil section of the lane gets carried down from the dirt yankers, or plastic balls up the middle by others and you cant carry?
What happens when the user only plays the outside dry part of the lane, but it gets too dry?

It doesnt make much logical sense to me.

There must be a hybrid solution to take advantage of the house shot's hold and hook zones.
Playing either of the two makes it more difficult with less taper, now more than ever.
“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh

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Re: Over / Under

Post by kajmk » April 2nd, 2016, 9:35 pm

MegaMav wrote:I dont agree with the advice, but what do I know, I havent won a championship.

I use more even angle ratios, medium flare Pin to PAP and plenty of surface.
If you have even a moderate amount of rev rate and rotation, you can get in the oil and blend out the transition to the dry as long as you use surface.
Avoid those "sexy" angular motions, and use surface, you'll be just fine.
Im going to keep the definition John, but remove the advice, I think there are multiple ways to attack the problem, but up to each individual user to figure out what works best for them.
I know I packed a glossary item with "opinion", bad choice. Also, that champion is a senior and that might color his strategy and perhaps opinion.
They say every action has a reaction. My action elicited another way of seeing the river. All in all a very good thing as now our readers have more than one way to address this situation. This is good and it is progress.

http://grammar.about.com/od/60essays/a/twowaysessay.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is there perhaps a wiki topic looming? Something like Strategies and Gambits ?
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

John

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Re: Over / Under

Post by MegaMav » April 2nd, 2016, 9:50 pm

No problem John, you get it.

This post motivated me to install a citations extension in the wiki.
It cleans up wiki article citations quite nicely.

Please see your recently created page for details on how to use it.
Click edit on the page to see the syntax and tags.

Have at it!
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Re: Over / Under

Post by kajmk » April 2nd, 2016, 10:26 pm

Thanks Eric.
I'm a bit rusty on wiki updates etc.
Also been away from the forum for the most part for quite a while.
Hoping to rekindle whatever fire remains.
Got to get into that BCU too.

Your post on Team Play makes some very cogent comments and observations on bowling and perhaps on society. I feel a comment from Gary coming.

Take care.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

John

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Re: Over / Under

Post by MegaMav » April 2nd, 2016, 11:03 pm

kajmk wrote:Thanks Eric.
I'm a bit rusty on wiki updates etc.
Also been away from the forum for the most part for quite a while.
Hoping to rekindle whatever fire remains.
Got to get into that BCU too.

Your post on Team Play makes some very cogent comments and observations on bowling and perhaps on society. I feel a comment from Gary coming.

Take care.
You are meticulous. I hope you will dive into the wiki head first.
We need leadership there and I would love it if you would carry the torch.
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Re: Over / Under

Post by bowl1820 » April 2nd, 2016, 11:03 pm

kajmk wrote:
I know I packed a glossary item with "opinion", bad choice. Also, that champion is a senior and that might color his strategy and perhaps opinion.
They say every action has a reaction. My action elicited another way of seeing the river. All in all a very good thing as now our readers have more than one way to address this situation. This is good and it is progress.

http://grammar.about.com/od/60essays/a/twowaysessay.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is there perhaps a wiki topic looming? Something like Strategies and Gambits ?
How about this one, no lane play strategies

Over/Under Condition :
A over/under condition (aka:Wet/Dry Condition) is a condition that produces a area of the lane that causes the ball to over hook and which is in close proximity to another area that causes a ball to under hook or not hook at all.
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."

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Re: Over / Under

Post by russelldean » April 3rd, 2016, 5:36 am

The key here is to attack the dry from the proper launch angle to create good ball motion. Equipment alone does not always solve the issue. Too many bowlers try to parallel back and forth. As the lanes cliff, making larger moves with the feet then the eyes usually does the trick.
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Re: Over / Under

Post by krava » April 4th, 2016, 4:12 am

if you keep moving with your feet and then your eyes you will be moving left. You are saying the plan is to attack the dry. Wouldn't you move right to move into the dry? For example move back right throw over 8 board or even maybe 6 with a less reactive ball and increase ball speed if necessary and just play in the dry? Or do you mean move right and use the dry part to snap the ball back into the pocket?

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Re: Over / Under

Post by russelldean » April 4th, 2016, 7:36 am

Move left, and attack the dry faster. keep eyes where there was to much friction. Once you open up the angles, it will blend it out. May need to ball up, and or soften up.
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Re: Over / Under

Post by Bahshay » April 4th, 2016, 12:03 pm

MegaMav wrote:I dont agree with the advice, but what do I know, I havent won a championship.

I use more even angle ratios, medium flare Pin to PAP and plenty of surface.
If you have even a moderate amount of rev rate and rotation, you can get in the oil and blend out the transition to the dry as long as you use surface.
Avoid those "sexy" angular motions, and use surface, you'll be just fine.
Im going to keep the definition John, but remove the advice, I think there are multiple ways to attack the problem, but up to each individual user to figure out what works best for them.

What should the user do when only playing the oil section of the lane gets carried down from the dirt yankers, or plastic balls up the middle by others and you cant carry?
What happens when the user only plays the outside dry part of the lane, but it gets too dry?

It doesnt make much logical sense to me.

There must be a hybrid solution to take advantage of the house shot's hold and hook zones.
Playing either of the two makes it more difficult with less taper, now more than ever.
Just a thought, Eric, but instead of removing opinion from the wiki, why not augment it? Add his opinion, your opinion, Mo's opinion, Jim's opinion, etc. Over/under means different things to different people, so it's unlikely one size fits all.

I say this because I'm battling over/under issues myself at my home house and scoured the Internet for suggestions. Having multiple opinions in one place from some of the most important people in the sport would've been immensely valuable in my search.
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Re: Over / Under

Post by cheech » April 4th, 2016, 1:07 pm

im with megamav with lane play strategy on this. i just bowled on somewhat of an overwall this weekend. not the most extreme one ive seen but i was able to blend out the wet/dry by using a cherry vibe. medium RG, larger VAL angle (pin down), and matched up the surface as needed on a weaker cover. ended with 1450 for 6
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