Where the ball is when the slide stops

Questions about coaching?

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
deanchamp
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 455
Joined: August 4th, 2010, 10:23 am
THS Average: 220
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Where the ball is when the slide stops

Post by deanchamp »

I was thinking about this the other day after watching video of myself (ball beside left ankle) and someone I was coaching (ball behind right leg), so I went through footage of 25 PBA bolwers and found the point where their slide foot stopped and took a still image. I have attached a pic showing 10 of the bowlers as an example.

It was interesting to see that there is quite a variation in where the ball is from bowler to bowler, which raises the question, is there an ideal point where the ball should be when the slide no longer continues forward?

Looking at the quality of bowler in the attached picture, I would have to think that factors like balance, the length of the flat spot (knee continuation), and upper body stability may be more important factors.

What do others think?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
USBC Silver Level Coach
BCU Graduate - Mastery of Layouts
BTM contributor
User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 4080
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: Where the ball is when the slide stops

Post by EricHartwell »

Liz Johnson and Chris Barnes would be a good examples to coach to. Their form and timing are picture perfect.

Regardless of the sport or motion there are optimum positions to be it to maximize leverage and strength. Individuals timing and rhythm make them look different.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
ads
Member
Member
Posts: 657
Joined: November 22nd, 2014, 6:07 am
THS Average: 205
Positive Axis Point: 5 5/8 up 3/4
Speed: 14 mph off hand
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 60
Location: Hong Kong

Re: Where the ball is when the slide stops

Post by ads »

When you took these still pictures, their slide foot stopped. How about the knees>? Still continuing or stopped too?


A side track question about arm/swing. Most of these bowlers bend their arms when swinging down so that their palms are in a better position to cup the balls. How to avoid grasping the balls at that moment?
Adrian
Right handed
PAP: 5 1/8 up 3/4
Speed: 15.5 mph (Kegel Specto)
Rev: 350 RPM
Axis tilt: 18-20*
Axis rotation: 60*
User avatar
deanchamp
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 455
Joined: August 4th, 2010, 10:23 am
THS Average: 220
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Where the ball is when the slide stops

Post by deanchamp »

ads wrote:When you took these still pictures, their slide foot stopped. How about the knees>? Still continuing or stopped too?


A side track question about arm/swing. Most of these bowlers bend their arms when swinging down so that their palms are in a better position to cup the balls. How to avoid grasping the balls at that moment?
It differs for each bowler but most pros have good knee continuation, although a few do straighten their knee and rear up a little bit. Have a look at videos of the pros bowling and you will see what happens next.

Re second question, as the ball is swinging forward, and if the bowlers have a good flat spot, there is no need to grasp the ball at this point as it isn't actually very heavy in terms of downward mass.
USBC Silver Level Coach
BCU Graduate - Mastery of Layouts
BTM contributor
ads
Member
Member
Posts: 657
Joined: November 22nd, 2014, 6:07 am
THS Average: 205
Positive Axis Point: 5 5/8 up 3/4
Speed: 14 mph off hand
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 60
Location: Hong Kong

Re: Where the ball is when the slide stops

Post by ads »

deanchamp wrote:
It differs for each bowler but most pros have good knee continuation, although a few do straighten their knee and rear up a little bit. Have a look at videos of the pros bowling and you will see what happens next.

Re second question, as the ball is swinging forward, and if the bowlers have a good flat spot, there is no need to grasp the ball at this point as it isn't actually very heavy in terms of downward mass.
My question of knee continuation (including straighten knee ore rear up) is that, if it is count as part of last step, may be a potential answer to why down swing positions vary.

RE second question, when will the best time to bend the arm?
Adrian
Right handed
PAP: 5 1/8 up 3/4
Speed: 15.5 mph (Kegel Specto)
Rev: 350 RPM
Axis tilt: 18-20*
Axis rotation: 60*
User avatar
kajmk
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3837
Joined: October 25th, 2010, 11:41 pm
Location: Sun City Arizona

Re: Where the ball is when the slide stops

Post by kajmk »

deanchamp wrote:
It differs for each bowler but most pros have good knee continuation, although a few do straighten their knee and rear up a little bit. Have a look at videos of the pros bowling and you will see what happens next.

Re second question, as the ball is swinging forward, and if the bowlers have a good flat spot, there is no need to grasp the ball at this point as it isn't actually very heavy in terms of downward mass.
Dean, your comment about the downward mass is I think a major factor in allowing small people to do big things to a bowling ball.
Chris Warren comes to mind, small and thin and could torque a bowling ball like it was a tennis ball.
He used to joke about his size and shape.
He said he was so thin that if he stuck out his tongue and turned sideways, he looked like a zipper.
Your point stresses the fact that the approach does more than meets the eye of the casual observer.
Jim's signature line comes to mind.
You packed a lot into that one sentence.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
User avatar
deanchamp
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 455
Joined: August 4th, 2010, 10:23 am
THS Average: 220
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Where the ball is when the slide stops

Post by deanchamp »

I remember looking at Chris Warren in the 2012 TOC qualifying and boy did he have some quick footwork for his last few steps!
ads wrote:My question of knee continuation (including straighten knee ore rear up) is that, if it is count as part of last step, may be a potential answer to why down swing positions vary.

RE second question, when will the best time to bend the arm?
Yeah it's interesting; when the slide stops and the ball is still behind the legs, the body and knee all still move forward to the release, and then afterwards usually too. Without this there would be no flat spot.

My original thoughts were about the best slide timing for leverage. What I'm curious about is that these bowlers can generate power whether they are stopping early and waiting for the ball, or still sliding at the release.

When you look at the bowlers in slow motion, they all start to bend their arms at slightly different points in the downswing. I don't think you want to be doing it too early as it will shorten the length of your arm and reduce ball speed a bit, and once the arm is bent, they all have it straight again at the point of releasing the ball.
USBC Silver Level Coach
BCU Graduate - Mastery of Layouts
BTM contributor
ads
Member
Member
Posts: 657
Joined: November 22nd, 2014, 6:07 am
THS Average: 205
Positive Axis Point: 5 5/8 up 3/4
Speed: 14 mph off hand
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 60
Location: Hong Kong

Re: Where the ball is when the slide stops

Post by ads »

deanchamp wrote:I remember looking at Chris Warren in the 2012 TOC qualifying and boy did he have some quick footwork for his last few steps!



Yeah it's interesting; when the slide stops and the ball is still behind the legs, the body and knee all still move forward to the release, and then afterwards usually too. Without this there would be no flat spot.

My original thoughts were about the best slide timing for leverage. What I'm curious about is that these bowlers can generate power whether they are stopping early and waiting for the ball, or still sliding at the release.

I tried 2 situations - "stop then release"; "slide with release". Looks like "stop then release" gives more power. One analogy to make is you hit the brake of your speedy car hard and sudden, what will happen to the passenger who sits next to you without buckling the seat belt? However, I am afraid overdoing this will damage the knee.


When you look at the bowlers in slow motion, they all start to bend their arms at slightly different points in the downswing. I don't think you want to be doing it too early as it will shorten the length of your arm and reduce ball speed a bit (good point), and once the arm is bent, they all have it straight again at the point of releasing the ball.
Adrian
Right handed
PAP: 5 1/8 up 3/4
Speed: 15.5 mph (Kegel Specto)
Rev: 350 RPM
Axis tilt: 18-20*
Axis rotation: 60*
User avatar
deanchamp
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 455
Joined: August 4th, 2010, 10:23 am
THS Average: 220
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Where the ball is when the slide stops

Post by deanchamp »

I just came across this statement by Slowinski today:

Third timing point, where is the ball when the slide stops?

The most efficient transfer of energy occurs when the ball arrives at the ankle when the slide foot stops.
USBC Silver Level Coach
BCU Graduate - Mastery of Layouts
BTM contributor
Dax
Member
Member
Posts: 263
Joined: March 8th, 2011, 7:38 pm
THS Average: 230

Re: Where the ball is when the slide stops

Post by Dax »

deanchamp wrote: It was interesting to see that there is quite a variation in where the ball is from bowler to bowler, which raises the question, is there an ideal point where the ball should be when the slide no longer continues forward?

VERY very interesting. And amazing pics to back it up.

I would have thought that Belmo would have been one of the "later" ones. Not so.

Seems as if another of those dogmas the older coaches teach has been disproven by your excellent videos.
"You see only what you look for; you recognize only what you know"

There are many worlds out there. Some of them can be accessed through reading. Encourage reading - T.A. Sankar

http://www.tasankar.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
kajmk
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3837
Joined: October 25th, 2010, 11:41 pm
Location: Sun City Arizona

Re: Where the ball is when the slide stops

Post by kajmk »

This emphasizes the value of modern analytical tools coupled with knowledge and creativity.
Every now and then someone creates a new mold to suit their physiology, their own strengths and weaknesses.

Don Johnson put it very well.
"First of all, I don't want you to think we're tryin' to make you all robots ... Point is, if the pros do it, there must be a good reason ... When I was young and wanted to be a pro bowler, in only averaged 165 so I knew I had a lot of work to do ...
I liked this guys knee bend so ... I liked this guys follow thru so ..."
In short, since people are not machines, in many endeavors there are guidelines not necessarily rules.

Necessity is truly the mother of invention.
Over the years the environment changed, surfaces, ball, pins, oils etc
Simpler times narrowed the scope so to speak.
Folks like Roth, Holman, Monacelli, PDW, and others used their minds to find a way. Others copied success, innovators tweaked, new tweaks and styles will emerge. Necessity is the Mother.

I stumbled upon an ESPN sports science video on YouTube with Sean Rash posted in 2014.
There's a topic in the General forum with the link.

It would be interesting to see similar sport science videos comparing several elitie bowlers of different genders, age groups, body types, styles


Folks is folks, circumstance and curiosity encourage creativity, add a few mistakes for spice.
Sometimes innovation is a combination of things including dumb luck and persistence. Edison quiped, he never had a failed experiment, but he did find 10,000 ways not to ...
Throw in indomitable spirit too.

Thanks again to Dean who always adds value and stimulates thought.
You sir are an educator and an asset to this forum.
Priceless nuggets!
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
Post Reply