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 Post subject: Highest Ratio used and Results from it?
 Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:14 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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Just curious about the highest ratios used for the dual angle...Please share your experience with the Ratio used (i.e. 1:4 or 4:1, etc.), your bowling stats, and the results of the ball reaction on different patterns (if applicable). Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Highest Ratio used and Results from it?
 Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:21 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Higher ratio just means further down the lane and faster response to friction.
Pin to PAP will determine hook shape.

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 Post subject: Re: Highest Ratio used and Results from it?
 Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:15 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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NPMystikal24 wrote:
Just curious about the highest ratios used for the dual angle...Please share your experience with the Ratio used (i.e. 1:4 or 4:1, etc.), your bowling stats, and the results of the ball reaction on different patterns (if applicable). Thanks.

Here is a good read:
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... Nov_10.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Highest Ratio used and Results from it?
 Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:36 am Post Number: #4 Post
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I have read the Wiki on Ball motion. Then i read this post and others that sorta confuse me. Let me explain to see if i understand enough to be dangerous or get what i'm looking for.

Ok, so you have 2.43 - 2.80 RG, 0.00 - 0.06 RG Diff. on the low end and high end of each, what do you look for in a ball. I know the ratio of both of these is the Differential Ratio. So, when you want to 'design' a ball shape, how do you search for the right set of numbers to put it together? At least i can tell from the numbers from now on what is what when i look at ball specs.

the last thing is after drilling what happens to these numbers? where do they end up at after drilling? I assume you can use a determinator to check within these ranges:

Spin times < 7 secs. are high diff ratio balls.
7-9 secs. are med. diff ratio balls.
> 9 secs. are low diff ratio balls

I know the Diff Ratio controls response to friction, but, i forgot if the high or low diff ration is the one i'm looking for in my case. I want the most aggressive cover to combine with this. Hopefully, it's not a cover that will only last 80 games.

Oh, I know the difference between sym and asym balls' characteristics but doubt i could tell you looking at a core and tell you if it is asym or sym all the time.

That brings up my big question.... Based on my specs, let's say i wanted to 'load up' a ball for the most reaction to friction. the most important factor is cover right? So, what ball has the strongest cover (any ball manufacturer). So, with that answer i choose that ball with the strongest cover (surface can be adjusted).

Next, i am targeting Diff. Ratio after drilling right? How do i get there? I want the fastest response to friction but i dont want an early rolling piece. I have one of those already. I want a sharp backend so i can play in heavy oil and when it comes out it's gonna take a left turn. Does this now change my ball cover choice?

Last, i want to load up the statics for this. Top finger and side wts. I know side weight will control the ball more in the roll phase but finger and top will get it down the lane and impart forces to balance out the side weight.

So, what ball and ball specs do i search out before drilling?
what drilling technique should i use?
I know i should "plan" for a balance hole and if i need one start small and work up to tweak.

So with the design of the ball combined with the drilling technique, I want to increase the ball's designed reaction. In the diff ratios range from .21 to .60, intermediate diffs from .008 inches to .037 inches, and total diffs from .037 inches to .061 inches, what will i be shooting for here to get 'this' ball? if i left something out i apologize but i appreciate the help. I think getting a ball set up like this will teach me a lot about my game even if i can only use it on specific conditions.

Of my specs below, i have verified my tilt at up to 15 (usually hovers around 15). My Pap is on the low side on the specs so i can be farther out from the span in the 5"+ range. My axis of rotation is pretty close at 65. I'll just guess my revs to be less on oil in the 300-350 range. Keep my speed around 15.5-16.

will there even be a ball i can find for this and if not, what will be the closest? What specs, drilling technique etc...

Thanks,

RR

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 Post subject: Re: Highest Ratio used and Results from it?
 Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:23 am Post Number: #5 Post
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rrb6699 wrote:
I have read the Wiki on Ball motion. Then i read this post and others that sorta confuse me. Let me explain to see if i understand enough to be dangerous or get what i'm looking for.

Ok, so you have 2.43 - , This is the Low RG, it is not that important. very low on Mo's list of variables.2.80 RG
0.00 - 0.06 RG Diff. on the low end and high end of each, what do you look for in a ball.I know the ratio of both of these is the Differential Ratio.This is not the Diff. Ratio (this is the Total Diff. which is more important on Mo's list of variables because it allows you to utilize flare if you choose to do so & gives a wider range of possible ball motions depending on layout option chosen)

So, when you want to 'design' a ball shape, how do you search for the right set of numbers to put it together? At least i can tell from the numbers from now on what is what when i look at ball specs.These numbers do not tell you much, if you take the low RG of the ball & want the RG of your PAP (the only RG which matters) to be low, you will have to layout the ball so that the pin is very close to the PAP. If you layout the PAP in some other location the PAP will have a higher RG according to where you place in in the layout in relation to the pin to spin line.

the last thing is after drilling what happens to these numbers? where do they end up at after drilling? This topic should answer your questions: viewtopic.php?t=69

I assume you can use a determinator to check within these ranges:

Spin times < 7 secs. are high diff ratio balls.
7-9 secs. are med. diff ratio balls.
> 9 secs. are low diff ratio balls

I know the Diff Ratio controls response to friction, but, i forgot if the high or low diff ration is the one i'm looking for in my case.The Diff. Ratio is not calculated from those numbers. The Diff. Ratios is the Intermediate Diff. divided by the Total Diff
I want the most aggressive cover to combine with this. Hopefully, it's not a cover that will only last 80 games.

Oh, I know the difference between sym and asym balls' characteristics but doubt i could tell you looking at a core and tell you if it is asym or sym all the time.

That brings up my big question.... Based on my specs, let's say i wanted to 'load up' a ball for the most reaction to friction. the most important factor is cover right? So, what ball has the strongest cover (any ball manufacturer). So, with that answer i choose that ball with the strongest cover (surface can be adjusted).

Next, i am targeting Diff. Ratio after drilling right? How do i get there? I want the fastest response to friction but i dont want an early rolling piece. I have one of those already. I want a sharp backend so i can play in heavy oil and when it comes out it's gonna take a left turn. Does this now change my ball cover choice?. Sounds like you are asking for low sums for oil combined with an aggressive cover & high ratios for a stronger back-end

Last, i want to load up the statics for this. Top finger and side wts. I know side weight will control the ball more in the roll phase but finger and top will get it down the lane and impart forces to balance out the side weight. Don't put much emphasis on these. they are way down on Mo's list of variables which effect ball motion. But you can still pick the top wt. if you are so inclined

So, what ball and ball specs do i search out before drilling? Pick a ball which is known for the reaction you are looking for. Search ball reviews of balls which you currently are familiar with & find someone who reviews balls whom you can trust/agree with

what drilling technique should i use? I don't think you can go wrong using Mo's techiques.
I know i should "plan" for a balance hole and if i need one start small and work up to tweak.

So with the design of the ball combined with the drilling technique, I want to increase the ball's designed reaction. The double thumb increases the design the most
In the diff ratios range from .21 to .60, intermediate diffs from .008 inches to .037 inches, and total diffs from .037 inches to .061 inches, what will i be shooting for here to get 'this' ball? if i left something out i apologize but i appreciate the help. I think getting a ball set up like this will teach me a lot about my game even if i can only use it on specific conditions.Sounds like you are wanting to put a Double thumb layout on a very strong coverstock. The object is to increase the Diff. Ratio of the drilled ball. The problem is that with modern coverstocks Mo has said that too high of an I.D. would make the ball hook too early for most bowlers on most conditions which would call for a lot of oil for the ball to really shine if that is what you are after?.

Of my specs below, i have verified my tilt at up to 15 (usually hovers around 15). My Pap is on the low side on the specs so i can be farther out from the span in the 5"+ range. My axis of rotation is pretty close at 65. I'll just guess my revs to be less on oil in the 300-350 range. Keep my speed around 15.5-16.

will there even be a ball i can find for this and if not, what will be the closest? What specs, drilling technique etc...Sounds like you are describing a Double Thumb reaction.

Thanks,

RR

Remember that in the Diff. Ratio article, Mo said the very high Diff. Ratio was best suited to speed dominant & low rev bowlers and on flatter patterns. What you are asking for may not be what you really want because looking at your specs you are very rev dominant bowler. You might be happier with the reaction you get by putting a Motion Hole in the Yeti Untamed. It has a strong cover & the highest back-end rating to date that I am aware of (I would recommend you use the rev-dominant layout which would tame the back-end a little ... not what you are asking I know).


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 Post subject: Re: Highest Ratio used and Results from it?
 Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:17 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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wow, thanks for taking time with my post. I should tell you why im looking for a ball with a strong reaction to friction that makes a hard left turn. its because I dont have that type of ball and I do very well with that type of ball shape (given the proper lane condition). if the yeti untamed has the strongest backend rating I will have to look at it more seriously. although I thought the ReaX V2 was stronger.

I know I need a lot more spin or side roll on a ball to allow the cover and ball dynamics to take over when I encounter friction. I think high flare fits that requirement.

maybe I should look at the ball with the combination of highest flare potential plus strongest coverstock. I could make bear, modified Chameleon (longer version), or any long pattern look like bumper bowling if I can get a setup like this.

would that change your yeti untamed recommendation to a different ball?

thanks again & I will post a rev rate video soon to see if you guys can help me nail that spec down better.

RR

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 Post subject: Re: Highest Ratio used and Results from it?
 Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:50 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Quote:
Ok, so you have 2.43 - 2.80 RG, 0.00 - 0.06 RG Diff. on the low end and high end of each, what do you look for in a ball. I know the ratio of both of these is the Differential Ratio. So, when you want to 'design' a ball shape, how do you search for the right set of numbers to put it together? At least i can tell from the numbers from now on what is what when i look at ball specs.


Let me take a shot at clarifying this. First, you are correct - the legal range for RG Diff. is 0 - .06. But what you've left out is the intermediate diff., or psa strength. This number for asymmetrical balls generally runs between .009 and .025. Below .09 the ball is considered to be symmetrical. The differential ratio is the intermediate diff. divided by the total diff.

Example:
Total diff = .052
Intermediate diff = .017
Diff ratio = .017/.052 = .327
-- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Highest Ratio used and Results from it?
 Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:14 am Post Number: #8 Post
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It is kind of a confusing post. You are asking for a long layout on a very strong ball for oil ( & you don't care if you hardly ever use it). Since you are very rev dominant, it is almost a given that the strongest ball you can drill, will hardly ever get used. The more asymmetrical we make the ball, the higher the Diff. ratio. If you take the ball with the highest I.D. (as John said) the more asymmetrical we should be able to make the ball with a double thumb hole. Mo has made sure that all the Radical balls will respond with the Double Thumb hole (The core shape does matter, not just the pre-drilled numbers). The problem is that the D.T. drilling can also mean earlier for some bowlers & you said you did not want that. If I was to take a chance on a different layout, I would go with the Double Thumb on an asymmetrical Radical ball (but there is no guarantee that it will not need the pins set up three quarters down the lane. Since you are after the maximum effect, you will want a balance hole in the layout. The Motion hole in a Yeti Untamed will also make that symmetrical ball very asymmetrical. Check the change in the spin times in MegaMav's video (from 9.8 seconds to 5.7 seconds):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I05-Sqe-MCo#t=52

The Double thumb layout is very strong and early. (better for high volume of oil)
The Motion hole layout is very strong and late.
To guarantee that the core is designed for those holes, I would do them on a newer Radical.

viewtopic.php?t=585 (see #2)
viewtopic.php?t=5903 (see #4)


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 Post subject: Re: Highest Ratio used and Results from it?
 Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:25 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Thanks guys for clarifying some of this. let me ask if this is possible then.

lets select the Yeti Untamed. if I use a small VAL setup for max flare pin to pap, with a high drill angle will that do what im trying to get?

Or is it possible to double thumb with max flare and a high drill angle?

maybe im asking for a two-way street here, but, how would I get similar shapes with a Yeti Untamed vs a weaker cover/core.

I think I could use a ball like this in more places than you think. on THS-type shots I could play further in than othets when I need to. on longer patterns I would have a more driving backend.

I think maybe I dont know how much difference there is between smaller VAL & drilling angles vs double thumb. is there some sort of breakoff point where one turns into the other?

so much more I need to know.....

RR

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 Post subject: Re: Highest Ratio used and Results from it?
 Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:48 am Post Number: #10 Post
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rrb6699 wrote:
Thanks guys for clarifying some of this. let me ask if this is possible then.

lets select the Yeti Untamed. if I use a small VAL setup for max flare pin to pap, with a high drill angle will that do what im trying to get? Since the Yeti Untamed is a symmetrical ball, you have to take what you get as for a large Drilling Angle. the distance from you PAP to your thumb-hole (PSA) is a set distance.

Or is it possible to double thumb with max flare and a high drill angle? You can double thumb the Yeti Untamed. what you are doing is increasing the PSA. The Drilling angle will get slightly smaller as it will move to between the thumb-hole & the balance hole. For very heavy oil, a Double Thumbed Reax version 2 would handle the oil easier.

maybe im asking for a two-way street here, but, how would I get similar shapes with a Yeti Untamed vs a weaker cover/core. The Yeti Untamed will give you the snappy back end, but you can use it on patterns with heavier oil.

I think I could use a ball like this in more places than you think. on THS-type shots I could play further in than othets when I need to. on longer patterns I would have a more driving backend.

I think maybe I dont know how much difference there is between smaller VAL & drilling angles vs double thumb. is there some sort of breakoff point where one turns into the other? Smaller VAL & drilling angles results in a lower total sum which will reach the second transition sooner (but not necessarily harder). Double thumb layout increases the I.D. which which maximizes the differentials & makes the ball more responsive to friction. You said you had early balls, but wanted one drilled for heavy oil which was very responsive. (that is why the Double Thumb recommendation) What the Double Thumb is for all but very high tilt bowlers, is a very high ratio with a high flare pin and fairly low angles and a differential increasing balance hole. The location of the balance hole/thumb-hole/PSA is what increases the differentials. For heavy oil, the Double thumb will react much sooner than a motion hole.

so much more I need to know.....

RR


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 Post subject: Re: Highest Ratio used and Results from it?
 Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:21 am Post Number: #11 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
It is kind of a confusing post. You are asking for a long layout on a very strong ball for oil ( & you don't care if you hardly ever use it). Since you are very rev dominant, it is almost a given that the strongest ball you can drill, will hardly ever get used. The more asymmetrical we make the ball, the higher the Diff. ratio. If you take the ball with the highest I.D. (as John said) the more asymmetrical we should be able to make the ball with a double thumb hole. Mo has made sure that all the Radical balls will respond with the Double Thumb hole (The core shape does matter, not just the pre-drilled numbers). The problem is that the D.T. drilling can also mean earlier for some bowlers & you said you did not want that. If I was to take a chance on a different layout, I would go with the Double Thumb on an asymmetrical Radical ball (but there is no guarantee that it will not need the pins set up three quarters down the lane. Since you are after the maximum effect, you will want a balance hole in the layout. The Motion hole in a Yeti Untamed will also make that symmetrical ball very asymmetrical. Check the change in the spin times in MegaMav's video (from 9.8 seconds to 5.7 seconds):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I05-Sqe-MCo#t=52

The Double thumb layout is very strong and early. (better for high volume of oil)
The Motion hole layout is very strong and late.
To guarantee that the core is designed for those holes, I would do them on a newer Radical.

viewtopic.php?t=585 (see #2)
viewtopic.php?t=5903 (see #4)

Mo clarified what i had underlined:

viewtopic.php?t=9238 (see #3)

Core density, inner core volume and especially core shape have everything to do with how drillings and balance holes affect ball motion.

CORE SHAPE DETERMINES BALL MOTION!!!!!! An axiom of Radical Ball Technologies!


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 Post subject: Re: Highest Ratio used and Results from it?
 Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:46 am Post Number: #12 Post
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Yes,

I will use the core shape that is designed for this motion shape i'm looking for and the hard read off the friction. the reason i dont want an early ball is i have a Frenzy drilled with small drilling angles and i use it on fresh oil or if i have an outside shot. I can make it move, but, even with the medium cover it is hard to delay the break point on dry shots. all of my other stuff is medium or light oil and Urethane. I think this type of shape and read off the friction will open up more areas of the lane so i can stay away from the heavy traffic or just play into it at the right point.

With the frenzy, on oil i can try to make it move and it makes a nice turn, but not a sharp enough angle to get reliable carry, plus i cannot go very far inside with it. It depends on the pins/conditions for the angle i know which is why i'm asking for something that got confirmed here with the small VAL angle and larger drill angle with flare maximum. my 15 degree tilt is enough looks like.

I think my eye seems to make me aim light (a little) in the pocket. i always seem to hit light or flush (maybe to keep off the splits), but, i get a lot of 10pins because of it. i can add revs and it helps with the equipment i have but the 10s are just tripping out on those hits. i need the ball to come just a little more for how i line up i guess. one or two degrees more angle will make a huge difference for me but more will still work because i have always bowled very well with balls that have that hard snap on the end.

I guess i have to ask. On double thumb, are there choices on ball shapes likle earlier and later when combined with the drilling angle being larger?

RR

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 Post subject: Re: Highest Ratio used and Results from it?
 Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:55 am Post Number: #13 Post
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rrb6699 wrote:
Yes,
I will use the core shape that is designed for this motion shape i'm looking for and the hard read off the friction. the reason i dont want an early ball is i have a Frenzy drilled with small drilling angles and i use it on fresh oil or if i have an outside shot. I can make it move, but, even with the medium cover it is hard to delay the break point on dry shots. all of my other stuff is medium or light oil and Urethane. I think this type of shape and read off the friction will open up more areas of the lane so i can stay away from the heavy traffic or just play into it at the right point.

on oil i can try to make it move and it makes a nice turn, but not a sharp enough angle to get reliable carry. depends on the pins/conditions for the angle i know which is why i'm asking for something that got confirmed here with the small VAL angle and larger drill angle with flare maximum. my 15 degree tilt is enough looks like.

I think my eye seems to make me aim light (a little) in the pocket. i always seem to hit light or flush (maybe to keep off the splits), but, i get a lot of 10pins because of it. i can add revs and it helps with the equipment i have but the 10s are just tripping out on those hits. i need the ball to come just a little more for how i line up i guess. one or two degrees more angle will make a huge difference for me but more will still work because i have always bowled very well with balls that have that hard snap on the end.

I guess i have to ask. On double thumb, are there choices on ball shapes likle earlier and later when combined with the drilling angle being larger?

RR

The double thumb is specific about the pin to PAP being 4" & the VAL being 30* & the PSA being located with the 2 holes because Mo is targeting 3 1/4" pin to PAP with a 20* VAL angle. The ball is so strong that your PAP will actually move on that ball.
If I understand about the earlier or later shapes in your question, Yes, but you would not call it a double thumb layout. You can use smaller drilling angles with a P4 balance hole to get the earlier reaction, but it will be earlier & smoother. Kind of a control layout for oil (commonly referred to as a Mid-lane layout on this forum).


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 Post subject: Re: Highest Ratio used and Results from it?
 Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:48 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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ok, so sounds like if I want to have dbl thumb with high flare I have to depend on the ball's rated flare potential. I dont need any more control layouts. I have a lot of medium & controlled stuff pieces covered for now. I guess I go back to asking for a high-flare hockey stick shape ball(s).

if my total sums fall around 105, then, what ball(s) with high flare potential and DA layout would I have to choose from to get that shape then?

thanks all for helping me understand dbl thumb better too!

RR

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300-(15) 290-(37) 280-(31)
Ser-1075-4gm, 867-3gm
speed dominant
Tilt: low°, Ax Rot: ~....°, PAP: 3 7/8 over- 1/2 up; Speed: 17.5mph Avg downlane
Several Wins/Top 5 Finishes-scr/hdcp tournaments.


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 Post subject: Re: Highest Ratio used and Results from it?
 Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:37 am Post Number: #15 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
rrb6699 wrote:
Thanks guys for clarifying some of this. let me ask if this is possible then.

lets select the Yeti Untamed. if I use a small VAL setup for max flare pin to pap, with a high drill angle will that do what im trying to get? Since the Yeti Untamed is a symmetrical ball, you have to take what you get as for a large Drilling Angle. the distance from you PAP to your thumb-hole (PSA) is a set distance.

Or is it possible to double thumb with max flare and a high drill angle? You can double thumb the Yeti Untamed. what you are doing is increasing the PSA. The Drilling angle will get slightly smaller as it will move to between the thumb-hole & the balance hole. For very heavy oil, a Double Thumbed Reax version 2 would handle the oil easier.

maybe im asking for a two-way street here, but, how would I get similar shapes with a Yeti Untamed vs a weaker cover/core. The Yeti Untamed will give you the snappy back end, but you can use it on patterns with heavier oil.

I think I could use a ball like this in more places than you think. on THS-type shots I could play further in than othets when I need to. on longer patterns I would have a more driving backend.

I think maybe I dont know how much difference there is between smaller VAL & drilling angles vs double thumb. is there some sort of breakoff point where one turns into the other? Smaller VAL & drilling angles results in a lower total sum which will reach the second transition sooner (but not necessarily harder). Double thumb layout increases the I.D. which which maximizes the differentials & makes the ball more responsive to friction. You said you had early balls, but wanted one drilled for heavy oil which was very responsive. (that is why the Double Thumb recommendation) What the Double Thumb is for all but very high tilt bowlers, is a very high ratio with a high flare pin and fairly low angles and a differential increasing balance hole. The location of the balance hole/thumb-hole/PSA is what increases the differentials. For heavy oil, the Double thumb will react much sooner than a motion hole.

so much more I need to know.....

RR


Hey Elga.... Question? Why did u say that the double thumb is great for all but very high tilt bowlers??? Im not arguing, rather just trying to understand why it wouldnt in fact be greatly ideal for higher tilt players.... The way i see it, is that high tilt bolwers need high flaring balls, in order to prevent their ball from squirting Through the breakpoint due to their excessive tilt. Same would be true for those that are extremely speed dominant. So I would assume that the double thumb layout would be better used in the high tilt Bowler's hands rather than one with low tilt.... Can u explain why my assumption is wrong please, or did u mean to say that the double thumb is good for most exect those with extremely low tilt? Thanks in advance bud

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My Specs


13-14mph via Quibica Monitors
230-260 Revrate
17* Axis Tilt
35-40* Axis Rotation
4 1/4" right 1/4" up PAP
Bowling on Medium volume and length THS over old grandfathered in Brunswick Anvilane 2 Synthetics


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 Post subject: Re: Highest Ratio used and Results from it?
 Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:15 am Post Number: #16 Post
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Strimmed wrote:
elgavachon wrote:
rrb6699 wrote:
Thanks guys for clarifying some of this. let me ask if this is possible then.

lets select the Yeti Untamed. if I use a small VAL setup for max flare pin to pap, with a high drill angle will that do what im trying to get? Since the Yeti Untamed is a symmetrical ball, you have to take what you get as for a large Drilling Angle. the distance from you PAP to your thumb-hole (PSA) is a set distance.

Or is it possible to double thumb with max flare and a high drill angle? You can double thumb the Yeti Untamed. what you are doing is increasing the PSA. The Drilling angle will get slightly smaller as it will move to between the thumb-hole & the balance hole. For very heavy oil, a Double Thumbed Reax version 2 would handle the oil easier.

maybe im asking for a two-way street here, but, how would I get similar shapes with a Yeti Untamed vs a weaker cover/core. The Yeti Untamed will give you the snappy back end, but you can use it on patterns with heavier oil.

I think I could use a ball like this in more places than you think. on THS-type shots I could play further in than othets when I need to. on longer patterns I would have a more driving backend.

I think maybe I dont know how much difference there is between smaller VAL & drilling angles vs double thumb. is there some sort of breakoff point where one turns into the other? Smaller VAL & drilling angles results in a lower total sum which will reach the second transition sooner (but not necessarily harder). Double thumb layout increases the I.D. which which maximizes the differentials & makes the ball more responsive to friction. You said you had early balls, but wanted one drilled for heavy oil which was very responsive. (that is why the Double Thumb recommendation) What the Double Thumb is for all but very high tilt bowlers, is a very high ratio with a high flare pin and fairly low angles and a differential increasing balance hole. The location of the balance hole/thumb-hole/PSA is what increases the differentials. For heavy oil, the Double thumb will react much sooner than a motion hole.

so much more I need to know.....

RR


Hey Elga.... Question? Why did u say that the double thumb is great for all but very high tilt bowlers??? Im not arguing, rather just trying to understand why it wouldnt in fact be greatly ideal for higher tilt players.... The way i see it, is that high tilt bolwers need high flaring balls, in order to prevent their ball from squirting Through the breakpoint due to their excessive tilt. Same would be true for those that are extremely speed dominant. So I would assume that the double thumb layout would be better used in the high tilt Bowler's hands rather than one with low tilt.... Can u explain why my assumption is wrong please, or did u mean to say that the double thumb is good for most exect those with extremely low tilt? Thanks in advance bud


Yes. If you have a lot of rotation (& low tilt), the D.T. can be a little harder to control (Mo has recommended low balance holes to avoid the jumpiness for these bowlers.) I did mean it was not as ideal as it is for low tilt, low rotation, speed dominant bowlers.
For high tilt bowlers Mo has recommended a D.T. layout with longer pin to PAP distances, & he has also recommended that you move the PSA a little farther from the thumb-hole and keep the other specs the same (or a combination).

I just posted this in a another thread (see #7): viewtopic.php?t=9320

"On players with that high a tilt, I put the PSA 1 1/2" right of the right edge of the thumb (for right handers) and figure out the drilling angle. The 4" pin to PAP distance and the 30* VAL angle don't change. This puts the balance hole into the PSA and decreases the drilling angle to compensate for the added tilt."


This quote might interest you also. I asked Mo why he used D.T. on some bowlers while using a slightly weaker Balance hole on others he also said:
"The P3 hole will make the difference as opposed to the "Double Thumb" balance hole location.

The key factor is your 70* of axis rotation in conjunction with 7* of tilt. We're getting into PDW territory. The P3 hole will help control possible overreaction and make the ball more controllable, but still very strong."


(see #4) viewtopic.php?&t=466
Try a "Double Thumb" angle set up with a 4 3/4" pin to PAP distance. The balance hole options become endless. It's, then, up to how good your decisions are.


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