Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb
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Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb
Looking for an explanation of this one. I have drilled two short pin layouts (1 sym, 1 asym) in the past year or so and they both thump the thumb hole about 5 feet before the pins. It is clearly happening on the dry flares. Initial track line is normal and there is absolutely no rolling over the holes until the ball exits the pattern. The motion of the balls were pretty good other than the thumping. Anyone else seen something like this?
DV8 Verge - 2x45
Motiv Jackal Ghost 70x2x45
My stats
PAP - 5 1/4 by 3/16 up
Tilt - 13
Rotation - 55
Rev rate - 375
Speed -17 off hand
DV8 Verge - 2x45
Motiv Jackal Ghost 70x2x45
My stats
PAP - 5 1/4 by 3/16 up
Tilt - 13
Rotation - 55
Rev rate - 375
Speed -17 off hand
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb
Are you normally high track on your regular equipment?
Stacy
- EricHartwell
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- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb
How far apart are the flares lines in the oil?
The Motiv Jackal Ghost 70x2x45 should look like this... If it doesn't, post a pic of it.
Verify your PAP on the balls in question.
The Motiv Jackal Ghost 70x2x45 should look like this... If it doesn't, post a pic of it.
Verify your PAP on the balls in question.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb
Here are pictures of the ghost. I remeasured and the val is 65 I don't think is a difference maker. I don't have any video of the ghost.EricHartwell wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2022, 12:49 am How far apart are the flares lines in the oil?
The Motiv Jackal Ghost 70x2x45 should look like this...dukeblue.PNG
If it doesn't, post a pic of it.
Verify your PAP on the balls in question.
I do have a video of DV8 Verge from about a year ago. White piece of tape on my PAP. I typically measure my PAP about every 3 months and it hasn't changed more than 1/4 inch in years. Looks like youtube automatically converts this to short with awful quality and I don't think you are allowed to upload video here. You can clearly here the thumping downlane.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/69x-5Za2QOo
The ball has been plugged once but I wouldn't think it would move the true location of the pin past the val. That would be over an inch movement. The ball is not rolling over the plug. Dry flares clearly on the left side of the thumb hole.
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb
I have seen an article by Bill Semsprott on BTM using Blueprint to show comparison of flare lines between pin to PAP distances and his examples showed that on happening on short pin to PAP distances. It definitely scared me away from using them.
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb
All bets are off on plugs and re-drills.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb
I played around in blueprint for about an hour and short pin layouts with a 45 degree VAL angle all tracked over or extremely close to the thumb. On both symmetrical and asymmetrical balls. If I increased the VAL angle to 60-70 degrees it appears safe as the bottom bowtie gets lowered sufficiently.
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- MegaMav
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb
Short pin layout should have drill angles of at least 75*, otherwise it defeats the purpose of the low flare effect.
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb
Good Stuff!dukeblue wrote: ↑May 6th, 2022, 4:06 pm I played around in blueprint for about an hour and short pin layouts with a 45 degree VAL angle all tracked over or extremely close to the thumb. On both symmetrical and asymmetrical balls. If I increased the VAL angle to 60-70 degrees it appears safe as the bottom bowtie gets lowered sufficiently.
Rev Dominance is getting you on this one. Couple less revs or some more speed and it wouldn't hit the thumb.
I have a few questions.
What core did you model?
What was the Drilling angle?
What is the inputted Pin to PAP?
Look at the Low Rg contour, It is not centered around the Pin.
The post drilled low Rg moved away from the Pin effectively making the post drill Pin(low Rg axis) to PAP shorter and VAL angle smaller.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb
That advice seems to contradict everything that the dual angle layout system stands for. The ability to pull multiple levers to fine tune a reaction. I respectfully disagree unless you can provide some concrete reasoning to your opinion.
With regards to this particular post, the drilling angle going from 70 to 90 provides extremely minimal differences in track flare according to blueprint. Adding 15 degrees to the drill angle is effectively reducing total hook by about a half board. I see no evidence of a 75 degree drilling angle "defeating the purpose" of a short pin position.
Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb
I modeled the 4 cores available in the trial version and observed similar results with each ball.EricHartwell wrote: ↑May 7th, 2022, 12:23 am Good Stuff!
Rev Dominance is getting you on this one. Couple less revs or some more speed and it wouldn't hit the thumb.
I have a few questions.
What core did you model?
What was the Drilling angle?
What is the inputted Pin to PAP?
Look at the Low Rg contour, It is not centered around the Pin.
The post drilled low Rg moved away from the Pin effectively making the post drill Pin(low Rg axis) to PAP shorter and VAL angle smaller.
1. Mission - dry flares are directly over thumb
2. Taboo - dry flares clip the bottom of the thumb
3. Outburst - dry flares ~1/2 inch from thumb
4. 607A - dry flares ~1/2 inch from thumb
I used a drilling angle of 70. Setting the drilling angle to 90 made minimal difference. Maybe 0.5 to 1 flare less on the thumb.
Pin to PAP used was 2 inches. Pins from .75 to 3 are all in danger of hitting the thumb, keeping the angles consistent.
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb
I have yet to have dry flares hitting my thumb except for a double thumb layout on a Taboo Gas mask core.
I have had plenty of balls layed out with 2 to 3" Pin to PAP.
It sure seems that with rev dominance, the low flare short pin layouts need larger drill angles And larger VAL angles.
I will keep this in mind when making layout recommendations.
I have had plenty of balls layed out with 2 to 3" Pin to PAP.
It sure seems that with rev dominance, the low flare short pin layouts need larger drill angles And larger VAL angles.
I will keep this in mind when making layout recommendations.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
- MegaMav
- Moderator
- Posts: 4694
- Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
- THS Average: 225
- Sport Average: 200
- Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
- Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 14
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
- Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
- Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
- Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
- Location: Malta, NY
Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb
On a short pin layout, most bowlers do not want the ball revving up until late in the hook phase.dukeblue wrote: ↑May 7th, 2022, 3:35 am That advice seems to contradict everything that the dual angle layout system stands for. The ability to pull multiple levers to fine tune a reaction. I respectfully disagree unless you can provide some concrete reasoning to your opinion.
With regards to this particular post, the drilling angle going from 70 to 90 provides extremely minimal differences in track flare according to blueprint. Adding 15 degrees to the drill angle is effectively reducing total hook by about a half board. I see no evidence of a 75 degree drilling angle "defeating the purpose" of a short pin position.
The purpose of a low flare layout is control of the lane with a longer, smoother, hook phase.
By reducing the drill angle you are, in effect, causing the migrating axis to cross the pin to spin line earlier, which causes the ball to rev up.
I'd like to see a manufacturer's drill sheet which recommends a low flare layout with a drill angle of less than 75.
Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb
And I was playing around with this drilling as an option on fresh sport patterns. With quite a bit of oil the the front of the lane and clean backends, I wanted to get the ball started earlier hence the smaller drill angle. The short pin to PAP measurement was to control the flare and let me stay further right on the fresh. I'll also add than Ryan Ciminelli won a PBA title throwing a short pin layout with a 70 degree drilling angle.MegaMav wrote: ↑May 8th, 2022, 1:16 pm On a short pin layout, most bowlers do not want the ball revving up until late in the hook phase.
The purpose of a low flare layout is control of the lane with a longer, smoother, hook phase.
By reducing the drill angle you are, in effect, causing the migrating axis to cross the pin to spin line earlier, which causes the ball to rev up.
I'd like to see a manufacturer's drill sheet which recommends a low flare layout with a drill angle of less than 75.
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Re: Short pin layout - dry flares hitting thumb
Just use surface, I mean if you have 450+ revs and 21mph speed then I guess you can compare to RC
Stacy