*thumbs up*EricHartwell wrote: And you have a good Idea just don't take it too far like I tried to explain of you won't get the "hit"
Sport Layout Ratio Question
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- Mongo
- Certified Coach
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- Joined: March 13th, 2014, 5:33 am
- THS Average: 225
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- Preferred Company: DV8/Radical
Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question
USBC Silver Certified Coach
JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.
- russelldean
- BCU Graduate Layouts
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- Location: pasco wa
Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question
Pap is 4 7/8. Up 7/8. Black beauty. Fresh is fine through maybe game 1 until downlane motion disappears. I am about a 160 average bowler game 2. They get better middle of the block. Then black and white at the end.EricHartwell wrote: What is your PAP measurement and what ball?
I am surmising that the fresh condition is what is giving you fits and once the pattern blends out and the midlane opens up you get comfortable, yes?
Please click the Green Button, If i have been helpful..
- EricHartwell
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- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
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- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question
Black Beauty? As in the Classic Rubber ball with a pancake core from the 70's.russelldean wrote:
Pap is 4 7/8. Up 7/8. Black beauty. Fresh is fine through maybe game 1 until downlane motion disappears. I am about a 160 average bowler game 2. They get better middle of the block. Then black and white at the end.
Please tell me your using it for spares and that is what you are measuring your PAP from.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
- russelldean
- BCU Graduate Layouts
- Posts: 877
- Joined: February 14th, 2011, 6:09 am
- THS Average: 230
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- Preferred Company: Brunswick
- Location: pasco wa
Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question
EricHartwell wrote: Black Beauty? As in the Classic Rubber ball with a pancake core from the 70's.
Please tell me your using it for spares and that is what you are measuring your PAP from.
Ha yes. Spare ball
Please click the Green Button, If i have been helpful..
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
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- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
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- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question
russeldean, I still need to know what ball you are thinking of drilling.
It would also benefit me to know what you are currently rolling including layouts.
What I am thinking about is using the fingers like a P1 hole, drilling them deep to reduce the flare rather than a short pin to PAP on an Asymmetrical ball.
It would also benefit me to know what you are currently rolling including layouts.
What I am thinking about is using the fingers like a P1 hole, drilling them deep to reduce the flare rather than a short pin to PAP on an Asymmetrical ball.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
- Mongo
- Certified Coach
- Posts: 471
- Joined: March 13th, 2014, 5:33 am
- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2" over, 1 1/2" up
- Speed: 18 MPH
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- Axis Rotation: 80
- Preferred Company: DV8/Radical
Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question
OK, so I put a 90 x 2 x 40 on the Tremendous and it rolls great. Flare is definitely less than what I remember having on my Guru, buuuuuuuuuuuuuut......still way too much downlane motion for what I'm looking for.EricHartwell wrote: Your idea is extreme in a couple different ways. I feel the Totals are too high and Pin to PAP too short. With this layout I would expect you to need to sand the ball to 500 grit. Obviously you experienced lane conditions that you couldn't overcome last year. I have no doubt that your idea would work to keep you in the pocket playing straighter but I believe your carry will definitely suffer.
I would go with 125* totals at the most and 2.75:1 Ratio
low flare layout ................ 90-2-35
This layout is not really compensated for you being left handed. Normally the totals and Ratio would be a little bit lower.
I have a Tremendous and have experimented quite a bit with surface and ended up bringing it back to the factory 500/1500 surface. It played best for me with the out of the box surface. Disclaimer I do not have a low flare layout on it.
Essentially, I want a hook/set motion for sport patterns. My big struggle on sport patterns is ball motion that basically goes sideways out of the pattern. Given my speed/tilt/rotation combo, this happens a lot, especially on the left side because it never breaks down.
USBC Silver Certified Coach
JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question
Factory surface is 500/1500, very aggressive.
Try a surface adjustment. Start with 2000, roll it see how it acts. Still too much smooth it up some more with 4000.
Hook Set reaction is is quite different from low flare, almost opposite. Dull surface with much lower totals, Ratio and stronger pin to PAP position. 40-5-30
Try a surface adjustment. Start with 2000, roll it see how it acts. Still too much smooth it up some more with 4000.
Hook Set reaction is is quite different from low flare, almost opposite. Dull surface with much lower totals, Ratio and stronger pin to PAP position. 40-5-30
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
- Mongo
- Certified Coach
- Posts: 471
- Joined: March 13th, 2014, 5:33 am
- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2" over, 1 1/2" up
- Speed: 18 MPH
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 80
- Preferred Company: DV8/Radical
Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question
I've got a Dragon at 40 x 4 x 40 and it almost fits the bill. I'd like a piece about 4-5 boards weaker to complimentEricHartwell wrote:Factory surface is 500/1500, very aggressive.
Try a surface adjustment. Start with 2000, roll it see how it acts. Still too much smooth it up some more with 4000.
Hook Set reaction is is quite different from low flare, almost opposite. Dull surface with much lower totals, Ratio and stronger pin to PAP position. 40-5-30
All that being said, I really like the overall look of the 2" pin on an asym. I may have to try that on something else. However, I would love to find a layout that basically does nothing, but still has some hit. The end goal is to be able to play more direct with a "A" release.
USBC Silver Certified Coach
JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.
-
- Member
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- Location: Valrico Florida
Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question
Is there a reason you’re not using or not wanting to use urethane? PB3 uses like 2 layouts on medium equipment that help him stay out, but he’s got a little more speed.
Stacy
- Mongo
- Certified Coach
- Posts: 471
- Joined: March 13th, 2014, 5:33 am
- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2" over, 1 1/2" up
- Speed: 18 MPH
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 80
- Preferred Company: DV8/Radical
Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question
I prefer to not use equipment that is going to shred the fronts and push oil downlane.44boyd wrote:Is there a reason you’re not using or not wanting to use urethane? PB3 uses like 2 layouts on medium equipment that help him stay out, but he’s got a little more speed.
It's a crutch that should have stayed in the 80's.
USBC Silver Certified Coach
JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question
4" pin to PAP is for more side to side movement. 5" pin to PAP is for more forward rolling movement.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
-
- Member
- Posts: 658
- Joined: January 25th, 2017, 3:10 am
- Preferred Company: Radical, Brunswick
- Location: Valrico Florida
Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question
I totally agree for a right hander, but as a lefty are you really creating that condition in one game on a pair?Mongo wrote:
I prefer to not use equipment that is going to shred the fronts and push oil downlane.
It's a crutch that should have stayed in the 80's.
Stacy
- Mongo
- Certified Coach
- Posts: 471
- Joined: March 13th, 2014, 5:33 am
- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2" over, 1 1/2" up
- Speed: 18 MPH
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 80
- Preferred Company: DV8/Radical
Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question
Every time I throw urethane, it looks great for maybe a game, then it just lays off downlane.44boyd wrote:
I totally agree for a right hander, but as a lefty are you really creating that condition in one game on a pair?
USBC Silver Certified Coach
JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.
-
- Member
- Posts: 658
- Joined: January 25th, 2017, 3:10 am
- Preferred Company: Radical, Brunswick
- Location: Valrico Florida
Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question
I’d look at medium level equipment since you’re not getting what you want out of the stronger covers.
Stacy
- Mongo
- Certified Coach
- Posts: 471
- Joined: March 13th, 2014, 5:33 am
- THS Average: 225
- Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2" over, 1 1/2" up
- Speed: 18 MPH
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 80
- Preferred Company: DV8/Radical
Re: Sport Layout Ratio Question
I've got a Beyond Ridiculous on the bench now.44boyd wrote:I’d look at medium level equipment since you’re not getting what you want out of the stronger covers.
USBC Silver Certified Coach
JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.