The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
Moderators: Mo Pinel, purduepaul, MathIsTruth, ballspinner
Forum rules
Ask Mo Pinel and the bowling industry's best your questions, and get straight answers.
This forum is moderated exclusively by Mo & Friends.
Ask Mo Pinel and the bowling industry's best your questions, and get straight answers.
This forum is moderated exclusively by Mo & Friends.
The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
Hi! I have a question
The low flare layout 110*1-1/2*50 put the PSA further than 6-3/4" from my PAP...
I am going to use this layout on Hammer Black Widow Urethane
Is this correct position the PSA for proper ball motion?
Thanks
Pavel
Left Handed
PAP 5.0" up 0"
more 60* rotation
18* tilt (about 11" track)
300-330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
The low flare layout 110*1-1/2*50 put the PSA further than 6-3/4" from my PAP...
I am going to use this layout on Hammer Black Widow Urethane
Is this correct position the PSA for proper ball motion?
Thanks
Pavel
Left Handed
PAP 5.0" up 0"
more 60* rotation
18* tilt (about 11" track)
300-330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
-
- Member
- Posts: 658
- Joined: January 25th, 2017, 3:10 am
- Preferred Company: Radical, Brunswick
- Location: Valrico Florida
Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
I’ll let the gurus say, but I’d think a low flare on a urethane would make it almost a spare ball.
Stacy
Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
The question is : is it possible and correct to use the layout which puts the PSA in position further than 6-3/4 " from the PAP on an asymmetrical ball (on symmetrical one's it is not a problem besause the first angle doesn't have any impact on ball motion ... Am I right?)44boyd wrote:I’ll let the gurus say, but I’d think a low flare on a urethane would make it almost a spare ball.
-
- Member
- Posts: 658
- Joined: January 25th, 2017, 3:10 am
- Preferred Company: Radical, Brunswick
- Location: Valrico Florida
Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
That can only be answered by the reaction you’re wanting.
Stacy
-
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 3174
- Joined: January 18th, 2010, 9:21 pm
Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
I would lower the drilling angle so that you have 6 1/2". I have gone 8" and the ball wasn't any good. The other option is to really put it a long way (almost to the negative axis). Mo has done that on a few balls for 2 handers. I tried that layout and it killed the ball, but still had a little left, but on urethane, I would stay between 5 1/2 and 6 1/2".Pavel wrote:Hi! I have a question
The low flare layout 110*1-1/2*50 put the PSA further than 6-3/4" from my PAP...
I am going to use this layout on Hammer Black Widow Urethane
Is this correct position the PSA for proper ball motion?
Thanks
Pavel
Left Handed
PAP 5.0" up 0"
more 60* rotation
18* tilt (about 11" track)
300-330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
What about this? I am not sure that the first angle is less than 90*elgavachon wrote: I would lower the drilling angle so that you have 6 1/2". I have gone 8" and the ball wasn't any good. The other option is to really put it a long way (almost to the negative axis). Mo has done that on a few balls for 2 handers. I tried that layout and it killed the ball, but still had a little left, but on urethane, I would stay between 5 1/2 and 6 1/2".
Guru Supreme Low Flare Layout Compared to a Strong Layout YouTube - 3 янв. 2016 г.
https://www.google.com.ua/url?sa=t&sour ... OD4xbU2nov" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
-
- Member
- Posts: 658
- Joined: January 25th, 2017, 3:10 am
- Preferred Company: Radical, Brunswick
- Location: Valrico Florida
Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
Are you trying to get a pre drilled ball?
Can’t see that link since it’s UA
Can’t see that link since it’s UA
Stacy
- imagonman
- Member
- Posts: 126
- Joined: January 21st, 2017, 5:18 pm
- Preferred Company: Brunswick
- Location: Cleveland Ohio
Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
Pavel wrote: The question is : is it possible and correct to use the layout which puts the PSA in position further than 6-3/4 " from the PAP on an asymmetrical ball (on symmetrical one's it is not a problem besause the first angle doesn't have any impact on ball motion ... Am I right?
It does so have an impact, it's just that you don't have the control of final PSA placement w/o a weight hole now.
On Symm's the PSA ends up around the thumbhole. The only control of Drill angle is from pin placement - i.e very limited.
- MegaMav
- Moderator
- Posts: 4694
- Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
- THS Average: 225
- Sport Average: 200
- Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
- Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 14
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
- Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
- Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
- Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
- Location: Malta, NY
Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
Im about to blow a gasket, I see this too much.imagonman wrote:On Symm's the PSA ends up around the thumbhole.
Its not accurate, even the Radical facebook page has said this, not good!
In a drilled symmetrical ball without a balance hole the PSA or High RG axis will be 6 3/4" from the Low RG axis within 1/2" of the centerline.
-
- Member
- Posts: 91
- Joined: March 20th, 2014, 10:09 am
- Preferred Company: any
Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
Here is the youtube link.https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ong+Layout" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Just copy and paste if this link didn't show up.
Really I woudn't put that layout on urethane.I know its asymmetrical it will be a spare ball.I use 110 x 1 1/4 x 50 and 90 x 2 1/4 x 45 alot.I am rev dominant slower speed and they work great on strong asymmetrics on these wet/dry houseshots.
Really I woudn't put that layout on urethane.I know its asymmetrical it will be a spare ball.I use 110 x 1 1/4 x 50 and 90 x 2 1/4 x 45 alot.I am rev dominant slower speed and they work great on strong asymmetrics on these wet/dry houseshots.
Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
Try to find it in youtube by name44boyd wrote:Are you trying to get a pre drilled ball?
Can’t see that link since it’s UA
Or another
Guru Master Layouts for Hooking Lanes
Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
So the first angle could be more than 90* on asym. And it is correct for dual angles system? I don't say about a coverstock...bowlingforsoup wrote:Here is the youtube link.https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ong+Layout" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Just copy and paste if this link didn't show up.
Really I woudn't put that layout on urethane.I know its asymmetrical it will be a spare ball.I use 110 x 1 1/4 x 50 and 90 x 2 1/4 x 45 alot.I am rev dominant slower speed and they work great on strong asymmetrics on these wet/dry houseshots.
-
- Member
- Posts: 658
- Joined: January 25th, 2017, 3:10 am
- Preferred Company: Radical, Brunswick
- Location: Valrico Florida
Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
160 is the suggested max total, Mo recommends no higher than 90 on the Wikipedia for drilling angle.Pavel wrote: So the first angle could be more than 90* on asym. And it is correct for dual angles system? I don't say about a coverstock...
Stacy
- MegaMav
- Moderator
- Posts: 4694
- Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
- THS Average: 225
- Sport Average: 200
- Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
- Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 14
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
- Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
- Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
- Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
- Location: Malta, NY
Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
Not recommended.Pavel wrote:The low flare layout 110*1-1/2*50 put the PSA further than 6-3/4" from my PAP...
With that high of a drill angle its possible the ball will never rev up.
Weak hitting power. Consult with a Hammer/EBI representative.
Use a Brunswick/DV8/Radical ball and I will advise you.
- imagonman
- Member
- Posts: 126
- Joined: January 21st, 2017, 5:18 pm
- Preferred Company: Brunswick
- Location: Cleveland Ohio
Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
Yeah, then argue & blow a gasket @ MO then!MegaMav wrote:
Im about to blow a gasket, I see this too much.
Its not accurate, even the Radical facebook page has said this, not good!
In a drilled symmetrical ball without a balance hole the PSA or High RG axis will be 6 3/4" from the Low RG axis within 1/2" of the centerline.
See this @ 43:00 but more so @ 50:00 pt. #1 in B&W!
[youtube][/youtube]
Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
In any case thank you for your answers. Good luck!MegaMav wrote:
Not recommended.
With that high of a drill angle its possible the ball will never rev up.
Weak hitting power. Consult with a Hammer/EBI representative.
Use a Brunswick/DV8/Radical ball and I will advise you.
- MegaMav
- Moderator
- Posts: 4694
- Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
- THS Average: 225
- Sport Average: 200
- Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
- Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 14
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
- Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
- Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
- Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
- Location: Malta, NY
Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
I've disputed it and got no response.imagonman wrote: Yeah, then argue & blow a gasket @ MO then!
Rebuttal or not, it isnt accurate.
It doesnt really matter in the end because we cant chance symmetrical ball drilling angles with a hole.
Accuracy involves technicality and it may be beyond what they want to convey.
- imagonman
- Member
- Posts: 126
- Joined: January 21st, 2017, 5:18 pm
- Preferred Company: Brunswick
- Location: Cleveland Ohio
Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
……...and technically I agree w/ you. Why he makes that generalized statement is beyond me, especially after showing the pin down Intel w/ the PSA marked on the drawing WELL below the thumbhole. I guess that means or is close enough to 'in the thumbhole'???????? Got me.....shrug.MegaMav wrote:
I've disputed it and got no response.
Rebuttal or not, it isnt accurate.
It doesnt really matter in the end because we cant chance symmetrical ball drilling angles with a hole.
Accuracy involves technicality and it may be beyond what they want to convey.
The Hi RG is 6-3/4" from the pin or Low RG.
If one drills w/ the pin in grip center of a 4-1/2" span, let's say, that puts the center of thumbhole @ ,what 3" or less? That's NOT even 1/2 way to the Hi RG!
More technically correct would be to say that the PSA is 6-3/4" away from the pin ON A LINE thru the thumbhole within 1/2" of the grip centerline. NO?
On most pin up above fingers the PSA will usually fall in the thumbhole area @ 6-3/4" away.
Anyone w/ a Determinator should be able to prove all this easily & show it. I wish I had one!
Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
If it regards my response... I asked concrete question, other words : how do they link dual angles system and the low flare layout 110*1-1/4*60 on the Guru bowling ball shown? In this case the PSA to the PAP distance >6-3/4". Does the drill angle >90* possible and correct? I was not answered... Are there different systems for Hammer and Radical bowling balls? What could my response be?MegaMav wrote:
I've disputed it and got no response.
Rebuttal or not, it isnt accurate.
It doesnt really matter in the end because we cant chance symmetrical ball drilling angles with a hole.
Accuracy involves technicality and it may be beyond what they want to convey.
From WiKi I found out that all asym balls show the same flare with the Pin to PAP distance from 2-1/4 to 5-3/4. Therefore to change a ball motion (its reaction) of asymm balls without holes there exists only way to change the sum of angles (or to change a surface) Am I right? Or use the Pin to PAP distance less than 2-1/4... Is it true?
Pavel
- MegaMav
- Moderator
- Posts: 4694
- Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
- THS Average: 225
- Sport Average: 200
- Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
- Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
- Rev Rate: 375
- Axis Tilt: 14
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
- Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
- Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
- Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
- Location: Malta, NY
Re: The low flare layout on asymmetrical balls
Where the PAP migrates and how fast is significantly different between those Pin to PAP distances.
Treat the dual angle layout system as a sliding scale, not chunked up buckets of low, medium, high flare.
Drill angle to influence how early the ball revs up.
Pin to PAP distance on how fast or slow to burn off tilt and rotation.
VAL angle to control how long or short the hook zone is.
If you want a layout for your ball, contact a Hammer representative.
I am not familiar with their products.
Treat the dual angle layout system as a sliding scale, not chunked up buckets of low, medium, high flare.
Drill angle to influence how early the ball revs up.
Pin to PAP distance on how fast or slow to burn off tilt and rotation.
VAL angle to control how long or short the hook zone is.
If you want a layout for your ball, contact a Hammer representative.
I am not familiar with their products.