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 Post subject: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?
 Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:31 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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Recently there have been recommendations from Mo on the facebook that do not make sense to some.
Specifically shorter Pin to PAP for Symmetrical balls.
I do not follow the facebook pages so I am not at liberty to comment about the specific recommendations that have been given.

I think the confusion is about the fact that we don't really know how Asymmetrical a Symmetrical ball/core is after we drill holes in it. I think Mo does know, especially when the recommendation is for a Radical ball. The Radical cores are barely Symmetrical to begin with.

The thing to remember is, it about the Drilled ball.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?
 Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:05 am Post Number: #2 Post
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So what your saying is if he gave a recommendation to follow it without question? Especially on a Radical ball?

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?
 Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:17 am Post Number: #3 Post
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Lledsmarttam wrote:
So what your saying is if he gave a recommendation to follow it without question? Especially on a Radical ball?

I am not saying to be a lemming and just accept without question. I was hoping to get some discussion going about the topic. I would have a hard time going against a recommendation from Mo on a Radical ball.

I am saying we need to consider what the griping holes do to the Asymmetry of a ball.

A lot of things happen when a hole is drilled into a ball.
The PSA moves towards the thumb hole on weaker Asymmetrical cored balls.
The low Rg axis as represented by the pin prior to drilling moves away from a drilled hole.
How much core is removed or not removed in the case of the finger scoop in the Radical balls.

There is word on the street that Radical will be putting out new drillsheets for their equipment soon.
It will be interesting to see what he will recommend now that balance holes are not really an option.
I have a good idea there will be recommendations to drill the thumb deeper for stronger reactions and drilling the fingers deeper to weaken the reaction. Working the static weights in conjunction with depth of gripping holes will also be an option.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?
 Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:56 am Post Number: #4 Post
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EVRYONE needs to see the NEW video seminar before assuming anything...…………..this ones an eye opener for many & addresses & dispels many outdated myths as well.

The New Reality of BALL MOTION - The Rules Have Changed
https://youtu.be/rOOZdetR2Fs


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?
 Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:47 am Post Number: #5 Post
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imagonman wrote:
EVRYONE needs to see the NEW video seminar before assuming anything...…………..this ones an eye opener for many & addresses & dispels many outdated myths as well.

The New Reality of BALL MOTION - The Rules Have Changed
https://youtu.be/rOOZdetR2Fs

There was nothing new in this video. Mo has been preaching the same information for 8 years via this site. Now it is more important because drillers can't fix a screw up with a balance hole. Surface is the only tuning method once you put holes in it.

Just wait the USBC might outlaw any balls that have been plugged. That's when the manufacturers will boost sales again in the future.

Gone are the days of buying a $100 dollar ball and utilizing a balance hole to make it react like a $200 ball.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?
 Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:07 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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Regarding USBC recent changes to what may be done to a bowling ball -

What is your opinion, good, bad, neutral?
Do you care?
In your opinion, what percentage of bowler's are affected?
If you are a PSO, what's your expert opinion?
What was their rationale?
Any unexpected consequences?

The complexity would seem to mandate a computer in every shop with access to software that analyzed the variables coupled with bowler metrics, throw in environmental variables.
Sounds like a fun project. Did not imply cost effectiveness.

Not your Grandpas game anymore.
:D

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?
 Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:23 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Eric, I noticed something in the seminar video I haven’t heard before. Mo recomends 5.75-6.5 pin to paps on asymmetricals for no thumbers. I am going to email him a couple of questions regarding no thumb drillings and report back.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?
 Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:36 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Eric, I noticed something in the seminar video I haven’t heard before. Mo recomends 5.75-6.5 pin to paps on asymmetricals for no thumbers. I am going to email him a couple of questions regarding no thumb drillings and report back.


I noticed the same and am 99% sure he was talking about the psa to pap distance and not the pin to pap distance


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?
 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:23 am Post Number: #9 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
Eric, I noticed something in the seminar video I haven’t heard before. Mo recomends 5.75-6.5 pin to paps on asymmetricals for no thumbers. I am going to email him a couple of questions regarding no thumb drillings and report back.

That kind of recommendation makes sense. It is about getting the ball to roll. Too many people are concerned about side to side. With someone that has a lot of revs And alot of speed who regularly has to loft the gutter hell yes put the pin out there to 6".

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?
 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:37 am Post Number: #10 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
There was nothing new in this video. Mo has been preaching the same information for 8 years via this site. Now it is more important because drillers can't fix a screw up with a balance hole. Surface is the only tuning method once you put holes in it.

Just wait the USBC might outlaw any balls that have been plugged. That's when the manufacturers will boost sales again in the future.

Gone are the days of buying a $100 dollar ball and utilizing a balance hole to make it react like a $200 ball.


Yeah, but there are a few that still don't quite 'get it' yet or maybe haven't heard it laid out all in one seminar.


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?
 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:21 am Post Number: #11 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
That kind of recommendation makes sense. It is about getting the ball to roll. Too many people are concerned about side to side. With someone that has a lot of revs And alot of speed who regularly has to loft the gutter hell yes put the pin out there to 6".


Mo has twice recommended how I drilled the Guru core with very differing axis tilt between years. both times the psa to pap distance is 6+ inches and the pin to pap distances were 2" and around 4.5"

He mostly seemed to worry about putting the cg in the ring finger under the old rules for no thumbers


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 Post subject: Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?
 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:19 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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IMO, the new rules will change nothing with regard to pattern transition, required volume, and bowler movement. the Coverstocks are the real issue.
ie: a Surelock with a strong layout, 500 surface, and no balance hole will probably pick up more oil than a hyroad with a 1.25"x4" balance hole.

On positive note, static weights are no longer an issue on asymms with offset CG, nor is pin-CG distance a real issue.

BTW, Mo's video proves that you can move a symm PSA ~10 degrees positive by simply drilling a large/deep balance hole then plugging it.
Also, it is technically possible to enhance the depth of an IT thumb with creative use of various bit sizes and a slug at the bottom to hold the molly.

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 Post subject: Re: Confused about Pin to PAP distances?
 Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:48 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
That kind of recommendation makes sense. It is about getting the ball to roll. Too many people are concerned about side to side. With someone that has a lot of revs And alot of speed who regularly has to loft the gutter hell yes put the pin out there to 6".


Eric, I am a no thumber and had a Paradox drilled that had a pin to PAP in the 6" range that was unusable due to a loss of energy way too early because of my low tilt. Since redrilling with a 2" pin to PAP I can use the ball again and can stand around 20 board with right foot.

A 5.75-6.5" pin to PAP might be good for someone with higher tilt but not lower in my experience.

Jason

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