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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:14 pm Post Number: #41 Post
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JohnP wrote:
Mav - Remember, Nord marks with his right foot, not left. The numbers you gave him aren't close to what he'll throw. That's why I encouraged him to change his marking foot. -- JohnP


I gave marks at Arrows and Breakpoint. He can line up with his feet however he wants.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:16 pm Post Number: #42 Post
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Nord wrote:
The biggest problem I have is that I am inconsistent in my release.
Sometimes it gets hung up on my thumb and other times I drop it, both of which cause the ball to have nothing on it and just slide straight.


Attachment:
nord-backswing.png


I'm not a coach, but from your videos I can see a real problem with grip pressure. Hand on top of the ball, ball hanging off the thumb. I suspect your fit, span, thumb, etc could all be improved.

Again, back to the full roller - if you could get your hand behind the ball in the swing, it would be easier to be consistent at release. Thumb exits first, followed by fingers. It should just come off the hand using forward momentum. Not excessive grip pressure and precise timing.

As much as I enjoy Ned Day, Joe Joseph, etc. I wouldn't want to emulate their releases...

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:26 pm Post Number: #43 Post
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Yeas we all practice, but trying to get every shot perfect is unrealistic. Having a strategy that’ll allow for a little less revs/few board miss and still make it to the pocket is ideal.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:53 pm Post Number: #44 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Nord,

Here is what I want.
Take the Dark Legend Solid, sand it hard by hand with 500 then moderately (but not lightly) with 2000.
Give me 5 shots on video, I dont care if they strike.

Arrows/Breakpoint at 40-42ft.

5/5
15/15
8/5
13/6
18/8

These shots will show me the slope of the pattern left to right and front to back.
I don't think you are throwing the ball far enough right to kick off the friction hard enough.

Wow, ok, I will give this a try.
Be aware though that on the weekends they put down a light pattern compared to league and it is often beaten down so there is much more free hook.
So I am not sure you would learn what you want to learn since it wouldn't be league conditions.
My best bet is to go to Parkway early in the morning when they first have oiled the lanes and do the video then.
Usually it is dead then.
Let me see what I can do for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:15 pm Post Number: #45 Post
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stevespo wrote:

Attachment:
nord-backswing.png


I'm not a coach, but from your videos I can see a real problem with grip pressure. Hand on top of the ball, ball hanging off the thumb. I suspect your fit, span, thumb, etc could all be improved.

Again, back to the full roller - if you could get your hand behind the ball in the swing, it would be easier to be consistent at release. Thumb exits first, followed by fingers. It should just come off the hand using forward momentum. Not excessive grip pressure and precise timing.

As much as I enjoy Ned Day, Joe Joseph, etc. I wouldn't want to emulate their releases...

Steve

I have tried to start with my thumb more at 10 or 11 o'clock (the way my idol Billy Hardwick did) but it actually causes me to have to squeeze the ball really hard to hold onto it since it doesn't just hook into my thumb anymore.
So this causes my hand to still be on top of the ball, but from behind which is a very weak position which causes a lot of soreness very fast in my arm tendon.
Also in this position I find it very hard to release the ball smoothly and it mostly gets stuck on my thumb, or falls off much more frequently.
And when I do release it correctly it just goes pretty much straight with little to no hook and doesn't have much carry.
Remember, I have a conventional grip that was fitted for my by Ron Machniak to allow me to bowl without pain.
When I had a poor fitting before, I could only use an 11 lb ball and even it caused severe pain.
I almost quit bowling because of that but Ron saved me.
Now I can bowl with 15 lb without pain.
Attached are my grip specs:


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Last edited by Nord on Tue May 15, 2018 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 7:53 pm Post Number: #46 Post
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Nord wrote:
I have tried to start with my thumb more at 10 or 11 o'clock but it actually causes me to have to squeeze the ball real hard to hold onto it since it doesn't just hook into my thumb anymore.
So this causes my hand to be on top of the ball from behind which is a very weak position which causes a lot of soreness very fast.
Also in this position I find it very hard to release the ball smoothly and it mostly gets stuck on my thumb, or falls off much more frequently.
Again, remember, I have a conventional grip that was fitted for my by Ron Machniak.

Why do you stick with the conventional grip? That is also something that isn't very viable in modern bowling. Now I am thinking if you are wanting to change more to your game than just to score on house shots (3/4 roller, more speed and revs). Only Jacob Butturff is seeing any big amount of success with it, and his reason is simple: Hyper-mobility.

While you may lose some accuracy in the start, going to finger-tip (or semi-fingertip, not that I recommend it, its for us weirder people :lol: ) could improve your game a fair bit too, in the long run, IF you change other aspects too, of course. Accuracy will certainly come back up to the current level, when you get used to the grip, different approach and what follows that (speed, revs).

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:00 pm Post Number: #47 Post
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Nord wrote:
I have tried to start with my thumb more at 10 or 11 o'clock but it actually causes me to have to squeeze the ball real hard to hold onto it since it doesn't just hook into my thumb anymore.Why you have to squeeze the ball points to improper fit!

So this causes my hand to be on top of the ball from behind which is a very weak position which causes a lot of soreness very fast.Being on top of the ball means your thumb & fingers will come out at the same time, or very close to it. Thereby you have NO leverage to create a proper powerful ball roll. There should not be any soreness.

Also in this position I find it very hard to release the ball smoothly and it mostly gets stuck on my thumb, or falls off much more frequently.
Because you're grip pressure is not right to hang onto the ball, improper fit. You either grab it to hang on or loose it early. Again, no leverage.
Again, remember, I have a conventional grip that was fitted for my by Ron Machniak. All due respect to Ron but a conventional/full roller has been ineffective for decades. Decades! That you either hang/drop it or have soreness goes directly to fit issues. Sorry.....


The only way your release creates ball motion at all is w/ your greatly reduced ball speed. As you undoubtedly have discovered. If you attempt to increase it, the ball will just skid forever, IF you can hang on to it, or you need tons of surface. Resin balls in your hand are way under/over because of lack of ball speed, lack of leverage (hand on top of ball) which all point to grip (conventional) fit and release (weak full roller). Until some or all of those issues are addressed you will be stuck playing the lines/lanes in a limited way, as you know!


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:25 pm Post Number: #48 Post
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JJakobsen wrote:
Why do you stick with the conventional grip? That is also something that isn't very viable in modern bowling. Now I am thinking if you are wanting to change more to your game than just to score on house shots (3/4 roller, more speed and revs). Only Jacob Butturff is seeing any big amount of success with it, and his reason is simple: Hyper-mobility.

While you may lose some accuracy in the start, going to finger-tip (or semi-fingertip, not that I recommend it, its for us weirder people :lol: ) could improve your game a fair bit too, in the long run, IF you change other aspects too, of course. Accuracy will certainly come back up to the current level, when you get used to the grip, different approach and what follows that (speed, revs).

In order to do the things you suggest, I would require at least a week at the Kegel center in Florida.
I would need a totally new fitting, new balls and specialized coaching to change me from where I am to a more modern style of release.
It would require an expenditure of over a thousand dollars and there is no guarantee that all the pain would not come back again.
The main issue is the tendon in my right arm was destroyed from playing competitive tennis.
Once I went away from wood rackets and got a graphite racket, yes I got way more power and moved up rapidly to the "A" player ranks, but in two years the racket destroyed my arm and I had to retire from the sport.
Modern tech killed me and that tendon hurts to this day.
The Orthopedic Dr. who recently examined it said that I experienced micro damage of the cells that cannot be cured.
Basically the whole tendon from where it connects to the hand, all the way back to the bicep, is just scar tissue now.
The slightest vibration on my hand will trigger intense pain that will last for a week before it calms down.
Repetitive squeezing can trigger it too, but it is mainly high frequency vibration or clicks, like pushing clicky buttons, that triggers it.
This is because the high frequency vibration of the graphite racket destroyed the cells.
So I must use great care in any layout to prevent squeezing.
With my current layout the ball just hangs there, hooked into my fingers and thumb like a suitcase handle, so grip force is very slight.
That is how I can get away with bowling now.
I would have to go to some place like Kegel because no one in San Diego knows anything about proper fitting or layouts.
And since I am a special case, I don't trust anyone but top pro fitters to help me or it will be a waste of money, time and my arm.
You see my quandary now?
Actually I have thought of switching to two handed bowling.
I was a two handed tennis player, two hands off both sides.
With the graphic racket I could hit the ball real hard and flat and just blow the ball by players.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:58 pm Post Number: #49 Post
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I find this to be a very good and educational thread!

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:55 pm Post Number: #50 Post
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One thing I forgot to mention that I discovered recently.
Normally as you see in my videos I release the ball very low and smooth and the ball just glides onto the lane silently.
But, if I stand more erect and loft the ball unto the lane Mika style with good lift, I get a much, much stronger ball reaction in the back and much more ball speed.
I don't do it because it makes a big thump sound when the ball lands.
But I thought I would share this discovery.
I am still pretty accurate doing it too as far as hitting my target line, but the ball jumps more for sure and hits way harder.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:24 pm Post Number: #51 Post
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Nord wrote:
In order to do the things you suggest, I would require at least a week at the Kegel center in Florida.
I would need a totally new fitting, new balls and specialized coaching to change me from where I am to a more modern style of release.
It would require an expenditure of over a thousand dollars and there is no guarantee that all the pain would not come back again.
The main issue is the tendon in my right arm was destroyed from playing competitive tennis.
Once I went away from wood rackets and got a graphite racket, yes I got way more power and moved up rapidly to the "A" player ranks, but in two years the racket destroyed my arm and I had to retire from the sport.
Modern tech killed me and that tendon hurts to this day.
The Orthopedic Dr. who recently examined it said that I experienced micro damage of the cells that cannot be cured.
Basically the whole tendon from where it connects to the hand, all the way back to the bicep, is just scar tissue now.
The slightest vibration on my hand will trigger intense pain that will last for a week before it calms down.
Repetitive squeezing can trigger it too, but it is mainly high frequency vibration or clicks, like pushing clicky buttons, that triggers it.
This is because the high frequency vibration of the graphite racket destroyed the cells.
So I must use great care in any layout to prevent squeezing.
With my current layout the ball just hangs there, hooked into my fingers and thumb like a suitcase handle, so grip force is very slight.
That is how I can get away with bowling now.
I would have to go to some place like Kegel because no one in San Diego knows anything about proper fitting or layouts.
And since I am a special case, I don't trust anyone but top pro fitters to help me or it will be a waste of money, time and my arm.
You see my quandary now?
Actually I have thought of switching to two handed bowling.
I was a two handed tennis player, two hands off both sides.
With the graphic racket I could hit the ball real hard and flat and just blow the ball by players.


It's clearly visible in your video, you have to squeeze the ball just to hold on to it. Squeezing automatically rotates the forearm, which in your particular case, puts your hand directly on top of the ball. Ultimately, it all adds up to ball speed that is less than desirable. Right now, if your speed is off 1/10th of a mph it results in an unpredictable ball reaction.

Let's look at bowling from a tennis perspective. They are very similar in a lot of ways. You have good body control which all tennis players need and bowlers need it too. Right now, your body is getting into a position to lob a shot though. To roll a bowling ball effectively requires the same ability that it would take to drive a tennis ball deep into the back court. You have explained a physical condition that, apparently, will not allow you to complete that motion without physical discomfort.

I think, you might try going in the opposite direction in terms of equipment. You have already described your issues with overreaction as the result of high end equipment. You might want to give plastic a try (you can sand plastic too). You'll be able to stay in your comfort zone much, much longer. If your speed is slightly off, you'll leave a 3-6-10 instead of a runaway brooklyn. And last, but not least, you won't have to amp up your speed which might cause injury.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:45 pm Post Number: #52 Post
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Squeezing is also bad for tendon and joint issues. Try squeezing an object, feel your forearm, bicep, shoulder, with the other hand. Multiply this by the number of deliveries.
Squeezing also means less consistency as your are letting go of the ball versus the ball letting go of you.
Lift was more in vogue prior to the resin revolution.
But even back then, landing trajectory was paramount. Ball reacts more consistently when you land it like an airplane. The Holman/Jowdey video, see wiki discusses that.
Video made in Urethane era, believe Marshall was using a Wind U-dot a pancake weight block. The Sybervision tapes are also on the wiki, you can hear the release well in the slow motion portions.
A good pro shop operator can help you get a good feel for a clean release on a ball they drill for you. Also discuss fingertip options.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:46 pm Post Number: #53 Post
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TomaHawk wrote:
It's clearly visible in your video, you have to squeeze the ball just to hold on to it.

The ball hangs in my fingers and thumb like a junkyard claw holding a car.
I have a ton of forward pitch in fingers (1/2") and Thumb (11/16") to aid in reducing squeezing.
Doesn't a normal fingertip grip held in the standard way require squeezing to hold onto it?


TomaHawk wrote:
To roll a bowling ball effectively requires the same ability that it would take to drive a tennis ball deep into the back court. You have explained a physical condition that, apparently, will not allow you to complete that motion without physical discomfort.

It is not the motion itself, it is the squeezing force and wrist force required to hold the ball straight and rigid that causes the pain.
Once I turn my thumb from 9 o'clock to 12 o'clock the forces exerted by the ball weight require significantly more strength to hold the ball and prevent the wrist from falling forward and the ball just falling off my thumb.
There is basically nothing to hold onto.
This is with my current grip/layout which was not designed for this purpose.

TomaHawk wrote:
I think, you might try going in the opposite direction in terms of equipment. You have already described your issues with overreaction as the result of high end equipment. You might want to give plastic a try (you can sand plastic too). You'll be able to stay in your comfort zone much, much longer. If your speed is slightly off, you'll leave a 3-6-10 instead of a runaway Brooklyn. And last, but not least, you won't have to amp up your speed which might cause injury.

I do have both a rubber ball and a Hammer Widow Spare with a strong drilling.
Not sure they could grip the lanes though, unless I sanded them way down and got real far right.
Heck, I may give it a try.
Say, 360 grit?

Here is a vid of me using the Widow Spare:


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:51 pm Post Number: #54 Post
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kajmk wrote:
A good pro shop operator can help you get a good feel for a clean release on a ball they drill for you. Also discuss fingertip options.

Where to find is the question.
Several bowlers in my area have asked the same question, who in San Diego or L.A. knows anything about proper fit?
Expert ball fitters are a rare thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:15 am Post Number: #55 Post
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The shots with the Widow Spare look fantastic Nord!

In an earlier post, I make the comment that you look like a curler. That was intended as a compliment. In your case, accuracy will trump power every time.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:26 am Post Number: #56 Post
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TomaHawk wrote:
The shots with the Widow Spare look fantastic Nord!

In an earlier post, I make the comment that you look like a curler. That was intended as a compliment. In your case, accuracy will trump power every time.

Thank you!
With the Widow Spare, the advantage it gave me was the ability to relax and just smooth release the ball nice and easy.
Because it was plastic I could slide it (curl it) very well through the front part of the lane with little effort and the rotation off my hand would be sustained farther down the lane.
But also because it is plastic and this ball has a big, heavy flaring, low RG asymmetric core, the backend reaction was very smooth and subtle and complimented my accuracy.
With it I am able to go more direct towards everything and better estimate how the ball will hook.
In this video I am playing on the Poway lanes which have very low volume and pretty high built in friction.
Believe it or not this ball is at 2000 grit.

Oh, and you are not the first person to say I bowl like a curler!
I actually take that as a compliment. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:57 am Post Number: #57 Post
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Nord wrote:
Where to find is the question.
Several bowlers in my area have asked the same question, who in San Diego or L.A. knows anything about proper fit?
Expert ball fitters are a rare thing.


By PSO I mean Pro Shop Operator.
Pretty sad situation. I live in a community near Phoenix Arizona. I personally know two very good PSO's in the area where and several through word of mouth from sources I trust. Though we have lost some bowling centers over the years, we have around 30 in the area.
I think you've sought PSO advice on the forum before. Maybe you might want to bump the topic. Try Mo and Friends, someone there might have recommendations.
Can't hurt to ask. Also, if you have not done so, ask some of the local better bowler's.

Bumped this topic to seek help for you sir!
viewtopic.php?uid=866&f=13&t=4288&start=0

Good Luck.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 5:04 am Post Number: #58 Post
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Nord wrote:
The ball hangs in my fingers and thumb like a junkyard claw holding a car.


Your thumb should be fully seated in the ball until you release it.
Try experimenting with using white tape in the back then a black piece on top.
HADA patch on your thumb can ensure a smooth exit on top of black, 1 piece of white in the front can help with grip.
Thumb comes out first, then the fingers.
However you are a full roller and they likely come out at the same time.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:02 am Post Number: #59 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Your thumb should be fully seated in the ball until you release it.
Try experimenting with using white tape in the back then a black piece on top.
HADA patch on your thumb can ensure a smooth exit on top of black, 1 piece of white in the front can help with grip.
Thumb comes out first, then the fingers.
However you are a full roller and they likely come out at the same time.


How about going to an oval thumb to get a cleaner release?


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:40 am Post Number: #60 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Your thumb should be fully seated in the ball until you release it.
Try experimenting with using white tape in the back then a black piece on top.
HADA patch on your thumb can ensure a smooth exit on top of black, 1 piece of white in the front can help with grip.
Thumb comes out first, then the fingers.
However you are a full roller and they likely come out at the same time.

I use Cork in the front of the thumbhole and black tape in the back.
I wear medium speed release tape on the back of my thumb and I have an oval thumbhole.
All recommendations by Ron who gave me my layout for Suitcase Full Roller.
All of these recommendations were spot on and helped me tremendously in reducing grip pressure and ease of release.
Ron basically worked with me, understood how I hold the ball and the issues I was having.
Told me how to measure my fingers and spans, had me take photos of my hand with the marks on it, in the ball and so on and from that he created my layout.
Then I tried it and we made a few more adjustments to get me to where I am now.

It doesn't seem like it from the photo, but I do insert my thumb all the way in, but when the ball hangs, the weight pulls the thumb out until it hooks on the bevel of the thumbhole and becomes secure.
The majority of the weight is on that small area below the bend of the thumb where the thumb hooks into the thumbhole and there is a small pressure callous there.
Very minor, you can't even see it, but you can feel it under the skin.
Additionally the fingers, just below the joints, also hold all the weight at the bevel of the finger holes.
This is how I hold the ball, the bevels hook into my fingers and thumb.
This is how I don't have to squeeze the ball much, because it just hooks into my fingers and thumb.
Remember, I have a suitcase grip that hangs straight down, so the normal rules for how a grip should be for a standard, behind the ball semi-roller with a fingertip grip likely cannot apply.
I am not sure a fingertip layout for a suitcase straight down hold would make my grip have less squeeze, it might actually require more squeeze to hold on since I can't get my fingers in all the way.
Again I won't know until I can try such a grip.
But I can tell you, it would likely need lots of forward pitch in thumb and fingers.
I once had a fingertip grip, before Ron, on a 12lb ball and I could barely hold on, then the PSO put a pinky hole in and that helped a lot having three fingers in the ball.
But there was no forward pitch, so it was still almost impossible to hold on without strain and eventual pain.

_________________
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


Last edited by Nord on Wed May 30, 2018 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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