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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:02 am Post Number: #61 Post
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JohnP wrote:


You really need to work with your PSO, he can locate your PAP and draw the proposed layout on a ball. Then he'll be able to determine more accurately the ball specs needed. -- JohnP

Yep, will do.
I am finding with balls that don't flare, much lower grits work very well for me.
The strong cover stock combined with a zero flare ball makes the ball very smooth and easy.
I have the Grizz at 320 and that motion is very nice.
My Purple tonight in league would not hook at 2000 grit, even from the outside, but the Widow at 500 grit grabbed easily and worked great for the whole set.
I am going to take the Purple down to 320 also to see how it does.
The Purple also doesn't flare, only slightly bigger oil track than the Grizz.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:59 am Post Number: #62 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:
To see more about Pin axis Go to Youtube and search Phoenix Ball Balancing (Axis balance), That's their bread and butter.

Their basic idea is flare makes a ball hard to control for most people, So they layout and drill the balls not to flare (or as they put it, not to wobble) aka: drill the guts out of the ball.

here's two of their latest videos

Traditional Axis Balance Layout


Modern Axis Balance Layout



Axis Balance-example roll
In a dynamically balanced bowling ball, the axis of roll migrates during the ball's roll, but the PAP remains the same point on the ball, Watch as this ball with an asymmetric core displays a consistent trajectory and keeps the same PAP during all three phases of the trajectory.

From the videos it looks like they did not do a Pin in PAP layout but instead did a Pin in Track layout.
You can see the pin tumbling around the ball on the spin path.
So the Pin is in the track and the core just rolls end over end.
This is different from a Pin in Pap where the track rotates around the axis in a stable manner.
Though both layouts do not flare, I would think the difference would be the RG.
Pin in PAP will produce the lowest RG possible for the core and make the ball roll as early as it can.
Pin in track would produce the highest possible RG and make the ball roll as late as it can.

Is this correct?

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:23 pm Post Number: #63 Post
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Nord wrote:
From the videos it looks like they did not do a Pin in PAP layout but instead did a Pin in Track layout.
You can see the pin tumbling around the ball on the spin path.
So the Pin is in the track and the core just rolls end over end.


I believe that's not the pin your seeing, the white dot (actually there are 2 if you step through it frame by frame) is the thumb (and finger) hole(s) going around. Their using white vinyl thumb and finger inserts.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:36 pm Post Number: #64 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:

I believe that's not the pin your seeing, the white dot (actually there are 2 if you step through it frame by frame) is the thumb (and finger) hole(s) going around. Their using white vinyl thumb and finger inserts.

Not sure about that.
He says at the end of his video that the pin will tumble end over end and you can see the pin is not in the PAP. This looks like a simple pin in track layout.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:07 pm Post Number: #65 Post
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Nord wrote:
Not sure about that.
He says at the end of his video that the pin will tumble end over end and you can see the pin is not in the PAP. This looks like a simple pin in track layout.


The ball in the Axis Balance example video is not the same ball in the Modern Axis Balance Layout video. That is a older video from 3 years (2014) before the Modern Axis Balance Layout video (2017)

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:41 pm Post Number: #66 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:

The ball in the Axis Balance example video is not the same ball in the Modern Axis Balance Layout video. That is a older video from 3 years (2014) before the Modern Axis Balance Layout video (2017)

Ok, well I am confused now.
What is more stable, a tumbling core or the pin spinning on PAP?
I would think the pin in PAP is more desirable for early roll and control.
So if I wanted to do this layout for Full Roller, I find my PAP exactly using the tape technique until I find the stable spot, then take that to the pro shop and pick out my ball and tell them I want the pin in my PAP and that's it?

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:53 pm Post Number: #67 Post
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Nord wrote:
Ok, well I am confused now.
What is more stable, a tumbling core or the pin spinning on PAP?


The pin represents the top of the core and therefore the Low RG Axis. Putting the Low RG axis on your PAP would be the most stable starting position. This is because as the ball rolls down the lane it wants to migrate to be rotating about its low RG axis, the easiest axis about which it could rotate. If the lane were infinitely long and infinitely wide, a ball rolled down the lane would eventually migrate to where it was spinning about it's Low RG axis. In real world scenarios, this doesn't happen. Nick Siefers proved that a ball rolled down a bowling lane continues to migrate about it's starting RG contour. Or as he put it, “While on the lane, RG values of the migratory path remained approximately constant at each migratory axis point for all core geometries and drillings.”
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... _cores.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:46 pm Post Number: #68 Post
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Quote:
So if I wanted to do this layout for Full Roller, I find my PAP exactly using the tape technique until I find the stable spot, then take that to the pro shop and pick out my ball and tell them I want the pin in my PAP and that's it?


That's close. I would suggest you go to the pro shop first and let them locate your PAP, being sure to confirm the location with a piece of white tape. Decide in advance if you prefer not to use a balance hole. Then let the PSO determine what combination of pin-out and top weight will be best for the layout. It's quite likely the PSO won't have a ball in stock that will meet that combination and will have to order it for you. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:09 pm Post Number: #69 Post
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Arkansas wrote:

The pin represents the top of the core and therefore the Low RG Axis. Putting the Low RG axis on your PAP would be the most stable starting position. This is because as the ball rolls down the lane it wants to migrate to be rotating about its low RG axis, the easiest axis about which it could rotate. If the lane were infinitely long and infinitely wide, a ball rolled down the lane would eventually migrate to where it was spinning about it's Low RG axis. In real world scenarios, this doesn't happen. Nick Siefers proved that a ball rolled down a bowling lane continues to migrate about it's starting RG contour. Or as he put it, “While on the lane, RG values of the migratory path remained approximately constant at each migratory axis point for all core geometries and drillings.”
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... _cores.pdf


Where exactly does it say this???? I can't find those comments or conclusions???? What did I miss????


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:35 pm Post Number: #70 Post
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imagonman wrote:


Where exactly does it say this???? I can't find those comments or conclusions???? What did I miss????

Did you read Test III???? "However, in each video segment, it can be seen that the axis of rotation is in a region near the low Rg axis of the ball."

The comments in yellow weren't meant to be quotes, they're my opinion as I understand things. Feel free to refute that opinion if you disagree.

Also, why do you need so many question marks???? It makes you seems really hostile. Is what I said completely ridiculous???? Do you vehemently disagree????

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:23 pm Post Number: #71 Post
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Here is a quote from Steve where he says this: (taken from viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12576 #51)

"Not sure where to jump into this conversation but will start with the deTerminator. The deTerminator adds energy into the system which forces the ball to find the High RG axis. That is the only reason why the spin axis of the ball migrates to the High RG axis. A symmetrical ball will have an entire equator of High RG values so it will not migrate to a specific location, just a spot on the equator of the ball. If a ball could be thrown down an infinitely long lane then the spin axis of the ball will migrate to the Low RG axis because friction will remove energy from the system.

It has been shown that the spin axis of the ball will migrate and maintain an RG value equal to or slightly less than the RG of the PAP. I used the term RG contour to allow an opportunity to visualize the RG values of the entire ball similar to a topographical map. As stated earlier, the RG contours of a symmetrical ball, i.e. the int diff is low, are more circular than asymmetrical balls which have more elliptical RG contours.

The dual angle layout used, or any layout method actually, will affect the shift in principal axes of the ball and the resulting RG values of those principal axes. That means the High RG, Low RG and Int RG axes of the drilled ball will shift after drilling. The Pin to PAP distance will have the most effect on the RG of the PAP. I can not say that it is the only part of the dual angle that matters because all 3 components will affect the final mass properties of the ball and consequentially the RG contours of the ball but the Pin to PAP is the most important."


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:30 pm Post Number: #72 Post
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Here is a short article I found on the Axis Weight Layout:

Everyone desires a controllable and predictable ball reaction on every lane condition.
There are certain drilling layouts which produce controllable ball motion.
Bowling ball axis weight is one of the most reliable layouts you can use to create a stable bowling ball motion on many common lane conditions.
Your pro shop professional can help you determine which layout to select based on your delivery technique.
Your Pro shop professional will access your Positive Axis Point, the Center of Gravity, and the Pin Location on your ball surface to begin mapping out the axis weight layout option.
They may opt to use a balance hole to achieve the desired amount of weight imbalance after drilling the given bowling ball.
Axis weight is best described as a drilling pattern designed to produce little or no track flare and get the ball into an early roll with little backend reaction.
Axis weight has the Pin located on or near the bowler's PAP.
The core is positioned along the initial spin axis which places the core in a stable position.
Using an axis weight layout, your bowling ball will be initially rotating about the minimum RG axis, which is a stable core position.
Therefore, it will continue to rotate about this axis creating no track flare.
Low track flare reduces the backend reaction.
Since the ball is rotating about the low RG axis, it is easier for you to rotate the ball off of your hand which gets the ball into an earlier roll.
Axis weight can be used on a variety of lane conditions including wet/dry lanes, heavy blended conditions, and shorter distance oil patterns.
It helps to understand the options you have when choosing a bowling ball drilling layout.
If you are a serious competitive bowler, having an axis weight drilling in your arsenal will serve you well.

https://www.bowlingball.com/wordpress/b ... xis-weight

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PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 150
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Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:24 pm Post Number: #73 Post
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So I was able to precisely locate my PAP by using the two balls touching on the ball rack technique.
I got a perfectly positioned oil stripe on my non-flaring Grizz bowling ball and followed the instructions of rotating that stripe so it is perfectly at 12 noon and 6pm, then touched the right side of the ball to the ball sitting to the right of it and marked the touching spot.
I put a piece of white tape on the ball and took some test shots and test videos.
As you can see from the video below, this looks like my perfect PAP spot.
Now I can do the Axis Weight drilling on a ball.


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Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 150
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Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:41 pm Post Number: #74 Post
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Nord wrote:
So I was able to precisely locate my PAP by using the two balls touching on the ball rack technique.
I got a perfectly positioned oil stripe on my non-flaring Grizz bowling ball and followed the instructions of rotating that stripe so it is perfectly at 12 noon and 6pm, then touched the right side of the ball to the ball sitting to the right of it and marked the touching spot.
I put a piece of white tape on the ball and took some test shots and test videos.
As you can see from the video below, this looks like my perfect PAP spot.
Now I can do the Axis Weight drilling on a ball.


Thats awesome to see Nord! fun to see my technique working for you!

If anyone got the time, Powerhouse BluePrint has a 5 day trial, you can test some balls and drill them as you want and see the axis migration and flare, or lack thereof in these drills you work with here! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:23 pm Post Number: #75 Post
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jimmydanny wrote:
If anyone got the time, Powerhouse BluePrint has a 5 day trial, you can test some balls and drill them as you want and see the axis migration and flare, or lack thereof in these drills you work with here! :)

Would love to see how my future ball would work with pin in PAP before drilling it.
I am going to put the drilling on a Brunswick True Motion Urethane.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:23 pm Post Number: #76 Post
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Nord wrote:
So I was able to precisely locate my PAP by using the two balls touching on the ball rack technique.
I got a perfectly positioned oil stripe on my non-flaring Grizz bowling ball and followed the instructions of rotating that stripe so it is perfectly at 12 noon and 6pm, then touched the right side of the ball to the ball sitting to the right of it and marked the touching spot.
I put a piece of white tape on the ball and took some test shots and test videos.
As you can see from the video below, this looks like my perfect PAP spot.
Now I can do the Axis Weight drilling on a ball.


Wow considering how stable your axis point appears already going down the lane, I don't know if a Axis drilling will do much. It will be interesting to see.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:42 am Post Number: #77 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:

Wow considering how stable your axis point appears already going down the lane, I don't know if a Axis drilling will do much. It will be interesting to see.

Remember, my axis is stable on the Grizz because it has no core and is drilled with CG in palm.
As a result the Grizz has zero flare and is stable, simply rolling around the axis.
On the Grizz, the pancake weight block and CG are in my track, so the weight tumbles end over end making the ball stable.
But this simple CG in palm layout I think produces the Highest RG, rather than the Lowest RG that a true Axis Weight drilling will do.
Both layouts are stable, but the difference is how early the ball will roll and how easy the ball will roll off your hand.
An Axis Weight drilling, which is the Lowest RG drilling, will make the ball roll easily off the hand and it will feel like there is little effort to get the ball to rotate, while a High RG drilling will feel like the ball is resisting your effort to rotate it.
Once I get the ball drilled up I will of course post a video showing how it works.
Since the pin will be in the PAP, if it is a bright white pin, then we should be able to see it be perfectly stable the way you see it in my Grizz video where I marked the PAP with white tape.

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Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:56 am Post Number: #78 Post
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Here is the video of the layout I am going to have done to my new Brunswick True Motion.
The ball came in and I am having it done tomorrow night.



Phoenix Ball Balancing actually has two layouts for balancing a ball.
"Axis Weight" and "Axis Balance."

Axis Weight is a layout that puts the pin in the PAP and balances the static weights around that point.
The result is a non-flaring ball with the lowest possible RG of the core.

Axis Balance is a layout that puts the pin in the track of the bowler and balances the static weights around that point.
The result is a non-flaring ball with the Highest possible RG of the core.

Both layouts produce a stable ball that is more immune to release errors, but the difference is in the RG effect.
Axis Weight produces a stable, early rolling ball.
Axis Balance produces a stable, late rolling ball.

I will post a photo tomorrow of what the layout looks like on my ball.

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:35 pm Post Number: #79 Post
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Nord wrote:
Here is the video of the layout I am going to have done to my new Brunswick True Motion.
The ball came in and I am having it done tomorrow night.



Phoenix Ball Balancing actually has two layouts for balancing a ball.
"Axis Weight" and "Axis Balance."

Axis Weight is a layout that puts the pin in the PAP and balances the static weights around that point.
The result is a non-flaring ball with the lowest possible RG of the core.

Axis Balance is a layout that puts the pin in the track of the bowler and balances the static weights around that point.
The result is a non-flaring ball with the Highest possible RG of the core.

Both layouts produce a stable ball that is more immune to release errors, but the difference is in the RG effect.
Axis Weight produces a stable, early rolling ball.
Axis Balance produces a stable, late rolling ball.

I will post a photo tomorrow of what the layout looks like on my ball.


Okay this what gets stuff confusing.

This video is called "Axis weight - Axis Balance of a bowling ball" and he shows laying out the ball with the Pin on the PAP.

Now you defined Axis Weight as a layout that puts the pin in the PAP and balances the static weights around that point.

So that would be a Axis weight layout as you defined it in that video.

But back in this video this same layout is called Axis Balance

Traditional Axis Balance Layout


Now you say your going to use this layout, Their using their "CompuBalance" software to determine the length of that first arc based on the bowlers PAP measurements. (Plus your grip, hole sizes etc.)

How are you(or PSO) calculating the length of the first arc? Because you can't use the measurement in that video (Unless you have the exact same PAP measurement they used)

or are you using a different method than what they showed?

FYI: The length of that first arc, He say's the computer calculated is the hypotenuse of right triangle.

So just plug your PAP Measurements into a right angle calculator and you'll get that measurement.

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Last edited by bowl1820 on Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Nord's Full Roller Thread
 Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:56 pm Post Number: #80 Post
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Pretty much from what I've read, the terms "Axis Balance" and "Axis Weight" are just used interchangeably in referring to "Pin on Axis" layouts.

Here's a example from a old bowling glossary pin on axis is called Axis Balance in it:

Axis Balance
- The PIN of the bowling ball is positioned on the bowler’s axis point (PAP) with re-spect to the initial rolling track of the ball.

Bowlingball.com calls the same thing Axis Weight:
"Axis weight has the Pin located on or near the bowler's PAP."

or in the bowling chat wiki:

Axis weight: Method of drilling in which the weight block is positioned so that its mass is evenly distributed around the axis of rotation. (aka: pin on the axis)

As for The "Pin on track" layout it is only called the "Modern Axis Balance" (or PSA Balance) by PhoenixBB,any place else it's mentioned it's just called "pin on track"


Phoenix Ball Balancing own info

looking at the trial vers. of the Compubalance software. they have help file that tells you everything about their stuff.

They define Pin on PAP as "Axis Balance"

They define Pin on Track As "PSA Balance" (for Asym's) "Modern Axis Balance" (for Sym's)

From the PBB help file:

Axis Balance defined
Drilling Option 1:

Computer Calculates Axis Weight and Axis Balance

We define axis weight as the situation that arises when the vector that equals the sum of the static weights of a ball has the same direction as the vector from the geometric center of the ball to the PAP of the ball. A simpler definition is to say that a ball has axis weight if the CG of the ball, after drilling, is on the same line that contains the center of the ball and the PAP. When the CG is between the center of the ball and the PAP, gravity will pull the CG in such a way as to increase the hook of the ball. When the center of the ball is between the CG and the PAP, gravity will pull the ball in such a way as to reduce the amount of hook of the ball. Important: The PAP is on the surface of the ball, but the CG is very near the geometric center of the ball. In fact, when side weight = 0, finger weight = 0, and top weight = 0, the CG is exactly at the center of the ball. Thinking of the CG as a mark on the surface of the ball will lead you to a misinterpretation of the above discussion.

We define axis balance as the situation that arises when a ball has axis weight AND the axis of symmetry of the core of the ball is the same line that contains the center of the ball and the PAP. (Visually, the pin will lie at the PAP, and the CG mark on the ball will lie between the pin/PAP and the center of grip.)

Therefore, it is possible to have axis weight without axis balance, but it is not possible to have axis balance without axis weight. Notice also that axis balance requires a symmetric core (since a line of symmetry is required).

If you want a ball with an asymmetric core to roll predictably and consistently, use PSA Balance. If the ball that you are drilling has an asymmetric core, the PSA Balance option will be enabled if you choose axis balance (Option #1). If PSA Balance is used on a ball, the ball will not ‘flip’, but rather, it will roll in a dependable arc. (It will still hit hard!) Visually, the Mass Bias point is located at the PAP for a ball drilled for PSA Balance.
screenshot
Attachment:
axis balance defined.JPG



Axis weight-Axis Balance
Attachment:
axisweightaxisbalance.JPG


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Click my green + rep button if this helps!
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."


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