Hi everyone,
Been a bit since I have posted but have a couple of things to figure out. First off, I currently have 2 balls drilled for sport conditions, 1 for the shorter length (black guru) and one for the medium length patterns (black guru) at the moment. I have a few other balls for transition on the shorter and medium patterns, the question now is the long sport stuff 43 ft +.
I am well aware of the article in the wiki here, but would like to see a little more of Mo's ideas on longer sport pattern layouts.
I have 3 balls I can use for the longer sport: 15 lbs NIB
1. Cash 4.5" pin to cg, cg 1.5" left...3.1 oz top
2. Guru supreme 3 7/8" pin to cg, cg 1 3/4" left...3.1 oz top
3. Guru mighty 3" pin to cg, cg 1 3/8" ~ left...3.1 oz top
My current ideas for these are:
Sharper breakpoint
Supreme 45 x 3 3/4 x 25 p3.5
Midlane
Cash 35 x 4 1/2 x 40 p3/3.5
Not sure on the guru mighty though.... might just drill this up for a benchmark for a THS
I love surface and will use it so that is not a problem.
sport layout advice
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- river800
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1056
- Joined: November 19th, 2010, 12:11 am
- THS Average: 202
- Preferred Company: Storm/radical
- Location: Coeur D A'lene, ID
sport layout advice
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: sport layout advice
I would go with a longer Pin to PAP on the Supreme, 4.5"-5"river800 wrote:Hi everyone,
Been a bit since I have posted but have a couple of things to figure out. First off, I currently have 2 balls drilled for sport conditions, 1 for the shorter length (black guru) and one for the medium length patterns (black guru) at the moment. I have a few other balls for transition on the shorter and medium patterns, the question now is the long sport stuff 43 ft +.
I am well aware of the article in the wiki here, but would like to see a little more of Mo's ideas on longer sport pattern layouts.
I have 3 balls I can use for the longer sport: 15 lbs NIB
1. Cash 4.5" pin to cg, cg 1.5" left...3.1 oz top
2. Guru supreme 3 7/8" pin to cg, cg 1 3/4" left...3.1 oz top
3. Guru mighty 3" pin to cg, cg 1 3/8" ~ left...3.1 oz top
My current ideas for these are:
Sharper breakpoint
Supreme 45 x 3 3/4 x 25 p3.5
Midlane
Cash 35 x 4 1/2 x 40 p3/3.5
Not sure on the guru mighty though.... might just drill this up for a benchmark for a THS
I love surface and will use it so that is not a problem.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
- river800
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1056
- Joined: November 19th, 2010, 12:11 am
- THS Average: 202
- Preferred Company: Storm/radical
- Location: Coeur D A'lene, ID
Re: sport layout advice
Lets talk about this for a minute. I know I have seen Mo and Megamav recommend longer pin to paps of 4 3/4 -5" on strong asymm's for people with higher tilt 16* plus for longer patterns, but I have seen layouts like 45 x 3 1/2 x 25 suggested by Mo for a sharper breakpoint (meaning a more rounded hook shape on the backend per say) on longer patterns.EricHartwell wrote: I would go with a longer Pin to PAP on the Supreme, 4.5"-5"
Lets say that my total for a benchmark is 95* with a 1.4:1 ratio which is 55 x 4 1/4 x 40 ~.
75* 1:1.1 35 x 4 1/2 x 40 midlane (love this layout)
75* 1.4:1 45 x 4 1/4 x 30 lower total benchmark
75* 1.9:1 50 x 4 1/2 x 25 totally strong
65* 1.4:1 40 x 4 1/4 x 25 even lower total benchmark
65* 1.9:1 45 x 4 1/2 x 20 lower total totally strong
60* 1.4:1 35 x 4 1/2 x 25 much lower total benchmark
Are these layouts splitting hairs yes, can they make a difference with different surfaces and balance holes added yes.
I understand the importance of getting the ball to read the friction window ASAP on a long pattern, but lowering the total much more with a benchmark ratio could be more usable overall.
There's some info that is being missed here between low drill angles and lower totals.
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
- EricHartwell
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
- Speed: 16 off hand
- Rev Rate: 330
- Axis Tilt: 12
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
- Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
- Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
- Location: Michigan
Re: sport layout advice
Please show a link to one of these examples, I would like to read it.river800 wrote:Lets talk about this for a minute. I know I have seen Mo and Megamav recommend longer pin to paps of 4 3/4 -5" on strong asymm's for people with higher tilt 16* plus for longer patterns, but I have seen layouts like 45 x 3 1/2 x 25 suggested by Mo for a sharper breakpoint (meaning a more rounded hook shape on the backend per say) on longer patterns.
I roll with lower tilt and am a fan of shorter pin to PAP's on Asymmetrical equipment especially when looking for more total hook. But, on longer patterns playing closer to the pocket More hook isn't necessary. Getting the ball to roll is necessary.
What information is missing?river800 wrote:There's some info that is being missed here between low drill angles and lower totals.
Lower drilling angles produce more flare. The result of having a smaller drilling angle is lower totals. You can't really get around it unless you compromise the VAL angle and Ratio.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
- deanchamp
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 455
- Joined: August 4th, 2010, 10:23 am
- THS Average: 220
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: sport layout advice
Here are some old examples from Mo I have on file of higher tilt suggestions:
Axis Tilt: 20 degrees
Rev Rate: 360-370
Speed: 16.76 (ave speed hand to pins)
Axis Rotation: 55
PAP : 5 3/4" by 1/2"
Mo: With 20* of tilt, I like pin to PAP distances of 4 ¼" to 5 ¾" on asymmetrical balls and 2" to 3 ¼" on symmetrical balls. I like angle ratios of .7:1 to 1.5:1. I like a sweet spot of 90*, that yields a benchmark layout of 45 / 5 / 45.
...
17* tilt
45* rotation
17 mph hand
250 revs
Mo:
benchmark asymmetrical = 40* 4 35* total sums 75*
benchmark symmetrical = 45* 4 35* total sums 80*
for drier patterns asymmetrical 45* 2.5 45*
for drier patterns symmetrical 55* 4.5 40*
for oil asymmetrical = 35* 4.5 25*
for oil symmetrical = 35* 3.5 30*
Axis Tilt: 20 degrees
Rev Rate: 360-370
Speed: 16.76 (ave speed hand to pins)
Axis Rotation: 55
PAP : 5 3/4" by 1/2"
Mo: With 20* of tilt, I like pin to PAP distances of 4 ¼" to 5 ¾" on asymmetrical balls and 2" to 3 ¼" on symmetrical balls. I like angle ratios of .7:1 to 1.5:1. I like a sweet spot of 90*, that yields a benchmark layout of 45 / 5 / 45.
...
17* tilt
45* rotation
17 mph hand
250 revs
Mo:
benchmark asymmetrical = 40* 4 35* total sums 75*
benchmark symmetrical = 45* 4 35* total sums 80*
for drier patterns asymmetrical 45* 2.5 45*
for drier patterns symmetrical 55* 4.5 40*
for oil asymmetrical = 35* 4.5 25*
for oil symmetrical = 35* 3.5 30*
USBC Silver Level Coach
BCU Graduate - Mastery of Layouts
BTM contributor
BCU Graduate - Mastery of Layouts
BTM contributor
- river800
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1056
- Joined: November 19th, 2010, 12:11 am
- THS Average: 202
- Preferred Company: Storm/radical
- Location: Coeur D A'lene, ID
Re: sport layout advice
The first example is for this bowler in this thread, the sharp breakpoint for long/heavier patterns. Post # 14EricHartwell wrote: Please show a link to one of these examples, I would like to read it.
I roll with lower tilt and am a fan of shorter pin to PAP's on Asymmetrical equipment especially when looking for more total hook. But, on longer patterns playing closer to the pocket More hook isn't necessary. Getting the ball to roll is necessary.
What information is missing?
Lower drilling angles produce more flare. The result of having a smaller drilling angle is lower totals. You can't really get around it unless you compromise the VAL angle and Ratio.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4224&p=35650&hilit ... nal#p35650" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The second one is a hint at something in this thread for a ball with a 30 x 3 x 50
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9093&p=72147&hilit ... nal#p72147" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Apparently the ball with this layout wasn't transitioning on "medium" conditions which is understandable, but for short sport, could be a whole another thing.
This might be an example, 30 x 4 x 45 as in this thread for short sport Post # 2
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12543&p=97076&hili ... ark#p97076" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The 30 x 4 1/2 x 55 in the wiki here is very twitchy, can't be used by just anyone. I know this because I have used it, but when I try and tilt the ball more it works much better but I don't have a bunch of tilt so this layout won't work for me so I am going to try something different. This layout is not good for a lower tilt/higher track person. A 35 x 3 1/4 x 55 might be a better option for a lower tilt higher track person for short sport. One thing that I know is we need more examples for "sport" specific layouts because most people won't be able to think outside the box like some of us can.
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
- river800
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1056
- Joined: November 19th, 2010, 12:11 am
- THS Average: 202
- Preferred Company: Storm/radical
- Location: Coeur D A'lene, ID
Re: sport layout advice
Thank you!deanchamp wrote:Here are some old examples from Mo I have on file of higher tilt suggestions:
Axis Tilt: 20 degrees
Rev Rate: 360-370
Speed: 16.76 (ave speed hand to pins)
Axis Rotation: 55
PAP : 5 3/4" by 1/2"
Mo: With 20* of tilt, I like pin to PAP distances of 4 ¼" to 5 ¾" on asymmetrical balls and 2" to 3 ¼" on symmetrical balls. I like angle ratios of .7:1 to 1.5:1. I like a sweet spot of 90*, that yields a benchmark layout of 45 / 5 / 45.
...
17* tilt
45* rotation
17 mph hand
250 revs
Mo:
benchmark asymmetrical = 40* 4 35* total sums 75*
benchmark symmetrical = 45* 4 35* total sums 80*
for drier patterns asymmetrical 45* 2.5 45*
for drier patterns symmetrical 55* 4.5 40*
for oil asymmetrical = 35* 4.5 25*
for oil symmetrical = 35* 3.5 30*
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...