Ask your proshop to buy the system. Tell them its an investment, and if they are the only ones in the area, they should be able to make their money back quickly.Daryl wrote:There is no one in my area that does this grip layout (Augusta, Ga). How can I try this layout?
Thanks,
Daryl
the TRI GRIP disection
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- MeNoRevs
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Re: the TRI GRIP disection
- littleJOEYrimshot
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Re: the TRI GRIP disection
Ask your proshop to buy the system. Tell them its an investment, and if they are the only ones in the area, they should be able to make their money back quickly.[/quoteMeNoRevs wrote:
or you could fly up to milwaukee and i''l take care of you personally.
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Re: the TRI GRIP disection
PM sentlittleJOEYrimshot wrote:
PM me and I'll try and help....as of now I'm too confused, LOL
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
Book Average 210+
Re: the TRI GRIP disection
It makes sense to me what Bill said regarding how the hand is placed at release... With increased left pitch for rh bowler, it places thumb more outside and fingers consequently more inside at release. Ive always had this sensation when bowling no thumbed, which maybe can be imagined as extreme left pitch.
For me, for whatever reason, my tri grip thumb definitely exited very cleanly without the perception of hang I sometimes have with my standard fit. I suppose, though, if i were rolling better I may not have that comment... In any case, improved thumb clearance for me.
Once the thumb is out, and from where my fingers are with the new finger pitches, I have the feeling the release of my fingers are straight off the center of the pads, which felt great when simply unhinging and rolling the ball.
For me, this release ended up with about 13 degrees tilt (armadillo - I'm normally 10 to 13...) and about 45 rotation (visual on-lane observation) and possible small rev rate increase... When attempting higher axis rotation, though, it felt like coming off the sides. My test ball had no grips with slightly large fingers which i taped, and have since regripped with inserts. My pap 5.25 x .5 up, only a slight change from my "normal" pap.
One last comment. Going back to my standard grip ball after testing tri grip for a couple games, I threw two balls with normal grip. One guy said, "Wow, best ball you've thrown all night!"
For me, for whatever reason, my tri grip thumb definitely exited very cleanly without the perception of hang I sometimes have with my standard fit. I suppose, though, if i were rolling better I may not have that comment... In any case, improved thumb clearance for me.
Once the thumb is out, and from where my fingers are with the new finger pitches, I have the feeling the release of my fingers are straight off the center of the pads, which felt great when simply unhinging and rolling the ball.
For me, this release ended up with about 13 degrees tilt (armadillo - I'm normally 10 to 13...) and about 45 rotation (visual on-lane observation) and possible small rev rate increase... When attempting higher axis rotation, though, it felt like coming off the sides. My test ball had no grips with slightly large fingers which i taped, and have since regripped with inserts. My pap 5.25 x .5 up, only a slight change from my "normal" pap.
One last comment. Going back to my standard grip ball after testing tri grip for a couple games, I threw two balls with normal grip. One guy said, "Wow, best ball you've thrown all night!"
-Kevin
"If bowling wins, we all win!"
Silver coach - Bowler's Map and Digitrax, SE Wisconsin
IBPSIA certified tech
Always learning...
"If bowling wins, we all win!"
Silver coach - Bowler's Map and Digitrax, SE Wisconsin
IBPSIA certified tech
Always learning...
Re: the TRI GRIP disection
Just curious, for you folks that have this system in shop, do you charge your customer more ?
Press the + button if you feel I've been helpful
- russelldean
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Re: the TRI GRIP disection
Here are my thoughts after trying the new grip today. Ball is more comfortable on hand. Do not feel the stress on hand.Weight feels closer to the index finger, allowing me to stay open in the back and not fight early turn. Ball comes off thumb faster yet not early. I think this will help with versatility. My track seemed to migrate closer to holes, which concerned me that I had lost tilt. When I measured however, tilt had not changed. Not real sure I can tell if revs or rotation have changed, but the balls just feels good and comes off consistently. Well Done Bill Hall...
Please click the Green Button, If i have been helpful..
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Re: the TRI GRIP disection
russelldean wrote:Here are my thoughts after trying the new grip today. Ball is more comfortable on hand. Do not feel the stress on hand.Weight feels closer to the index finger, allowing me to stay open in the back and not fight early turn. Ball comes off thumb faster yet not early. I think this will help with versatility. My track seemed to migrate closer to holes, which concerned me that I had lost tilt. When I measured however, tilt had not changed. Not real sure I can tell if revs or rotation have changed, but the balls just feels good and comes off consistently. Well Done Bill Hall...
You mentioned weight feeling closer to the index finger. Where did you feel the weight on your standard drilled equipment. I thought the tri-grip was supposed to get the weight more in the palm and across the base of the middle and ring???
Last edited by J_w73 on September 14th, 2013, 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
Book Average 210+
- russelldean
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Re: the TRI GRIP disection
That's what I had read as well. My normal grip seemed to balance the weight more evenly. I did decide to shorten my span a hair with this grip. Not sure if that made a difference or not.
Please click the Green Button, If i have been helpful..
- odddood
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Re: the TRI GRIP disection
Ok here what I found out. Please DO NOT UPDATE you computer's Bios!!! If you do the machine ID will change and your so call tri grip video will no longer work. I just found out mine don't work and Bill wants $200 for another copy. So please make a note
- physicsnmotionlowrg
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Re: the TRI GRIP disection
There is something so fundamental that is being missed here in the dissection of the tri grip. I have taken both Mo's class, and also Bill's student and have learned the Tri Grip.
Mo's statement anything that is mathematical can be copied, cannot be argued, it's a fact.
However, the tri grip is not so simple, it is not just a mathematically based layout. Where as when I layout a ball with a CLT, and I use both often, I use the same span and pitches all of the time now that I have found my fit.
If you were to take a tri grip ball of mine and copy it on a ball that was laid out differently than the ball you chose to duplicate, it would not feel right. As someone who has studied a bit of Kinesiology like Bill, I would argue that the Tri Grip is not completely mathematical.
If I drill a ball that's 70 x 3 x 35 my pitches are a bit different than if I drill a ball that's 55x3x30. The tri grip has so much more to do with comfort and feel, and therefore the pitches vary based on how the ball falls in your hand after you complete the initial steps.
If you looked at my tri grip balls, the would all look the same. If you tried to duplicate them by choosing one at random and then picking layout at random, it would not be as comfortable.
In a dual angle ball, the angles effect the pitches I end up choosing, I would argue that it is a lot less mathematical after you learn the system and a lot more based on feel. While your span remains the same, your pitches will vary. That is what I have found.
Mo's statement anything that is mathematical can be copied, cannot be argued, it's a fact.
However, the tri grip is not so simple, it is not just a mathematically based layout. Where as when I layout a ball with a CLT, and I use both often, I use the same span and pitches all of the time now that I have found my fit.
If you were to take a tri grip ball of mine and copy it on a ball that was laid out differently than the ball you chose to duplicate, it would not feel right. As someone who has studied a bit of Kinesiology like Bill, I would argue that the Tri Grip is not completely mathematical.
If I drill a ball that's 70 x 3 x 35 my pitches are a bit different than if I drill a ball that's 55x3x30. The tri grip has so much more to do with comfort and feel, and therefore the pitches vary based on how the ball falls in your hand after you complete the initial steps.
If you looked at my tri grip balls, the would all look the same. If you tried to duplicate them by choosing one at random and then picking layout at random, it would not be as comfortable.
In a dual angle ball, the angles effect the pitches I end up choosing, I would argue that it is a lot less mathematical after you learn the system and a lot more based on feel. While your span remains the same, your pitches will vary. That is what I have found.
Re: the TRI GRIP disection
Is the video a physical thing that is shipped to you? Or is there a Download Link?odddood wrote:Ok here what I found out. Please DO NOT UPDATE you computer's Bios!!! If you do the machine ID will change and your so call tri grip video will no longer work. I just found out mine don't work and Bill wants $200 for another copy. So please make a note
I've purchased the video, but the only download link i've seen is for the invoice (pdf)
Did I miss something, or do I just need more patience?
- physicsnmotionlowrg
- Pro Shop
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Re: the TRI GRIP disection
No you should have a PDF file explaining everything, with the video download. Then it will have a machine id that you email Bill and he will send you your personal passwordl.
Re: the TRI GRIP disection
physicsnmotionlowrg wrote:There is something so fundamental that is being missed here in the dissection of the tri grip. I have taken both Mo's class, and also Bill's student and have learned the Tri Grip.
Mo's statement anything that is mathematical can be copied, cannot be argued, it's a fact.
However, the tri grip is not so simple, it is not just a mathematically based layout. Where as when I layout a ball with a CLT, and I use both often, I use the same span and pitches all of the time now that I have found my fit.
If you were to take a tri grip ball of mine and copy it on a ball that was laid out differently than the ball you chose to duplicate, it would not feel right. As someone who has studied a bit of Kinesiology like Bill, I would argue that the Tri Grip is not completely mathematical.
If I drill a ball that's 70 x 3 x 35 my pitches are a bit different than if I drill a ball that's 55x3x30. The tri grip has so much more to do with comfort and feel, and therefore the pitches vary based on how the ball falls in your hand after you complete the initial steps.
If you looked at my tri grip balls, the would all look the same. If you tried to duplicate them by choosing one at random and then picking layout at random, it would not be as comfortable.
In a dual angle ball, the angles effect the pitches I end up choosing, I would argue that it is a lot less mathematical after you learn the system and a lot more based on feel. While your span remains the same, your pitches will vary. That is what I have found.
So if you use the Tri Grip system, you have to have a different set of grip spec's (Finger pitches) for every different layout you use on a ball?
Sounds like that would make a lot money for the pro shop, you could charge a customer for a refit everytime they want a different layout.
Last edited by bowl1820 on September 18th, 2013, 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the TRI GRIP disection
I can't comment on how the tri-grip parameters are established. But you're going to have to explain why, after a ball has been drilled, I can't measure hole sizes, pitches, and spans and duplicate that on a second ball with a different dual angle layout. -- JohnP
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Re: the TRI GRIP disection
Why are your pitches different on a 70 x 3 x 35 ball versus a 55x3x30 ball??? I don't see how grip specs and ball layout have anything to do with each other. And once the holes are in the ball, the holes and pitches can be copied to another ball. Like Mo says it is spherical geometry, nothing super special or secret. If the span and pitches are measured accurately on both balls, it can be done. Pick a reference point, measure, and do it. It is just that simple.physicsnmotionlowrg wrote:There is something so fundamental that is being missed here in the dissection of the tri grip. I have taken both Mo's class, and also Bill's student and have learned the Tri Grip.
Mo's statement anything that is mathematical can be copied, cannot be argued, it's a fact.
However, the tri grip is not so simple, it is not just a mathematically based layout. Where as when I layout a ball with a CLT, and I use both often, I use the same span and pitches all of the time now that I have found my fit.
If you were to take a tri grip ball of mine and copy it on a ball that was laid out differently than the ball you chose to duplicate, it would not feel right. As someone who has studied a bit of Kinesiology like Bill, I would argue that the Tri Grip is not completely mathematical.
If I drill a ball that's 70 x 3 x 35 my pitches are a bit different than if I drill a ball that's 55x3x30. The tri grip has so much more to do with comfort and feel, and therefore the pitches vary based on how the ball falls in your hand after you complete the initial steps.
If you looked at my tri grip balls, the would all look the same. If you tried to duplicate them by choosing one at random and then picking layout at random, it would not be as comfortable.
In a dual angle ball, the angles effect the pitches I end up choosing, I would argue that it is a lot less mathematical after you learn the system and a lot more based on feel. While your span remains the same, your pitches will vary. That is what I have found.
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
Book Average 210+
- rrb6699
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Re: the TRI GRIP disection
i agree that any grip can be copied. just makes sense. i did not try this grip but, i did something similar by accident and did find the same "feel" as what you are describing the tri-grip does. I can throw 0 or under thumb pitched balls i have with my thumbtip only. this puts my hand and fingers in a similar position as the tri-grip or no-thumb (to some degree). my tilt goes up about 8 degrees when i do this from 15 to ~23degrees.
based on that i wanted to try a thumb pitch away from palm laterally and see how it works. I will let you know what happens. i have a ball to drill up soon and may opt to have this type of thumb pitch. but, if you want to feel what you are describing, see if you can throw any of your balls thumb tip. it forces your ball weight on to the base of the fingers and you have no choice but to hold your hand sideways which forced me 'inside' the ball through the release.
of course the thumb clears very nice and clean too.
rr
based on that i wanted to try a thumb pitch away from palm laterally and see how it works. I will let you know what happens. i have a ball to drill up soon and may opt to have this type of thumb pitch. but, if you want to feel what you are describing, see if you can throw any of your balls thumb tip. it forces your ball weight on to the base of the fingers and you have no choice but to hold your hand sideways which forced me 'inside' the ball through the release.
of course the thumb clears very nice and clean too.
rr
Tweenr-RH
300-(15) 290-(37) 280-(31)
Ser-1075-4gm, 867-3gm
speed dominant
Tilt: low°, Ax Rot: ~....°, PAP: 3 7/8 over- 1/2 up; Speed: 17.5mph Avg downlane
Several Wins/Top 5 Finishes-scr/hdcp tournaments.
300-(15) 290-(37) 280-(31)
Ser-1075-4gm, 867-3gm
speed dominant
Tilt: low°, Ax Rot: ~....°, PAP: 3 7/8 over- 1/2 up; Speed: 17.5mph Avg downlane
Several Wins/Top 5 Finishes-scr/hdcp tournaments.
Re: the TRI GRIP disection
I guess I had a patience deficiency.physicsnmotionlowrg wrote:No you should have a PDF file explaining everything, with the video download. Then it will have a machine id that you email Bill and he will send you your personal passwordl.
There was an E-Mail with the PDF file attached in my inbox.
Part of the confusion was that the E-Mails about the purchase were from Bill Hall,
and later the PDF file came in a message from William Hall.
Yes, I'm that easily confused.
Re: the TRI GRIP disection
After Reviewing the Video, if you took a ball that has been drilled using the Tri-Grip and measured for pitches, you would get numbers different than what the original driller used. But you can use the numbers you measured and drill a ball exactly the same. The reason the numbers would be different from the original driller is he probably used a different reference system.JohnP wrote:I can't comment on how the tri-grip parameters are established. But you're going to have to explain why, after a ball has been drilled, I can't measure hole sizes, pitches, and spans and duplicate that on a second ball with a different dual angle layout. -- JohnP
In my opinion, the different reference system is somewhat incompatible with the dual angle process.
When laying out a ball using the dual angle process, you end up with a grip centerline, and midline.
Neither of those were used with the Tri-Grip system, so it's left to the driller to workout the adjustments required to make the two systems compatible.
There was a reference to the Pin and Mass Bias location adjustments, so I may be wrong, but it felt to me as if something was missing to make the dual angle process work seamlessly.
Re: the TRI GRIP disection
It amazes me how many posts there are by those that have not even worked with the Tri-Grip Method. So let me put this another way before I close out my end of this conversation. If you look up any type of kinesiology it states that "if" the thumb is the axis point that the linear lines of the hand and the vector in which they create will therefore be part of the maximum strength with the least amount of effort if those lines are based "solely" on the radius of the object that is being gripped in the hand. That is simple enough to understand. Degree of pitches make a huge difference in what is established for the hand's motion and natural "shape". That also is simple enough.
As for the Tri-Grip and the "dual angle" layout, it is established with a mere 5/16" additional movement towards the positive axis point than what you would do with a standard T grip.
For those that have understood and taken the Tri-Grip into your shops, I truly appreciate it. For those that haven't or won't I respect your decisions as well. But one final thought, since a pin placement can change the leverage of a core based on a axis point, and the thumb is the axis point of the hand, then why wouldn't a different layout create a different leverage for the hand? Seems simple enough. I thank you all for your time and for me the subject is closed. The true test is those that have moved forward in offering an alternative to their players and customers.
Thank you,
Bill Hall
As for the Tri-Grip and the "dual angle" layout, it is established with a mere 5/16" additional movement towards the positive axis point than what you would do with a standard T grip.
For those that have understood and taken the Tri-Grip into your shops, I truly appreciate it. For those that haven't or won't I respect your decisions as well. But one final thought, since a pin placement can change the leverage of a core based on a axis point, and the thumb is the axis point of the hand, then why wouldn't a different layout create a different leverage for the hand? Seems simple enough. I thank you all for your time and for me the subject is closed. The true test is those that have moved forward in offering an alternative to their players and customers.
Thank you,
Bill Hall
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- Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
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Re: the TRI GRIP disection
I have tried it and didn't like. I wanted to like it. That is why I searched for someone that did it and drove 60 miles one way to have it done. Bill can you look at my fitted pitches and the final pitches (measured on a t line) and determine if my ball was drilled correctly. I would like to give the method an honest evaluation and if my ball isn't correct then there is no way I can do a true test.
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
Book Average 210+