the TRI GRIP disection

This forum is for topics related to pro shop operation and bowling center maintenance.
Usual topics include: shop gear, fitting, drilling and lane maintenance.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
MeNoRevs
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 305
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 11:28 pm
THS Average: 120
Positive Axis Point: 5 3/4 x 1 ^
Preferred Company: I prefer them all
Location: Southern Maryland

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by MeNoRevs »

Daryl wrote:There is no one in my area that does this grip layout (Augusta, Ga). How can I try this layout?

Thanks,

Daryl
Ask your proshop to buy the system. Tell them its an investment, and if they are the only ones in the area, they should be able to make their money back quickly.
User avatar
littleJOEYrimshot
Industry Professional
Industry Professional
Posts: 219
Joined: May 11th, 2010, 11:24 pm
THS Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 5 1/8 x 1/8 up
Speed: 16.5
Rev Rate: 310
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 80
Preferred Company: the best match up

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by littleJOEYrimshot »

MeNoRevs wrote:
Ask your proshop to buy the system. Tell them its an investment, and if they are the only ones in the area, they should be able to make their money back quickly.[/quote

or you could fly up to milwaukee and i''l take care of you personally.
J_w73
Member
Member
Posts: 915
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
THS Average: 210
Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17 mph
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 45+
Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
Location: Northern California

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by J_w73 »

littleJOEYrimshot wrote:
PM me and I'll try and help....as of now I'm too confused, LOL
PM sent
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
GoPackGo
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 31
Joined: June 22nd, 2010, 7:53 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by GoPackGo »

It makes sense to me what Bill said regarding how the hand is placed at release... With increased left pitch for rh bowler, it places thumb more outside and fingers consequently more inside at release. Ive always had this sensation when bowling no thumbed, which maybe can be imagined as extreme left pitch.

For me, for whatever reason, my tri grip thumb definitely exited very cleanly without the perception of hang I sometimes have with my standard fit. I suppose, though, if i were rolling better I may not have that comment... In any case, improved thumb clearance for me.

Once the thumb is out, and from where my fingers are with the new finger pitches, I have the feeling the release of my fingers are straight off the center of the pads, which felt great when simply unhinging and rolling the ball.

For me, this release ended up with about 13 degrees tilt (armadillo - I'm normally 10 to 13...) and about 45 rotation (visual on-lane observation) and possible small rev rate increase... When attempting higher axis rotation, though, it felt like coming off the sides. My test ball had no grips with slightly large fingers which i taped, and have since regripped with inserts. My pap 5.25 x .5 up, only a slight change from my "normal" pap.

One last comment. Going back to my standard grip ball after testing tri grip for a couple games, I threw two balls with normal grip. One guy said, "Wow, best ball you've thrown all night!"
-Kevin
"If bowling wins, we all win!"

Silver coach - Bowler's Map and Digitrax, SE Wisconsin
IBPSIA certified tech

Always learning...
stan
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 312
Joined: October 7th, 2010, 1:06 pm
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by stan »

Just curious, for you folks that have this system in shop, do you charge your customer more ?
Press the + button if you feel I've been helpful
User avatar
russelldean
BCU Graduate Layouts
BCU Graduate Layouts
Posts: 877
Joined: February 14th, 2011, 6:09 am
THS Average: 230
Positive Axis Point: 5 up 1/4
Speed: 20
Rev Rate: 400
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 60
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: pasco wa

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by russelldean »

Here are my thoughts after trying the new grip today. Ball is more comfortable on hand. Do not feel the stress on hand.Weight feels closer to the index finger, allowing me to stay open in the back and not fight early turn. Ball comes off thumb faster yet not early. I think this will help with versatility. My track seemed to migrate closer to holes, which concerned me that I had lost tilt. When I measured however, tilt had not changed. Not real sure I can tell if revs or rotation have changed, but the balls just feels good and comes off consistently. Well Done Bill Hall...
Please click the Green Button, If i have been helpful..
J_w73
Member
Member
Posts: 915
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
THS Average: 210
Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17 mph
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 45+
Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
Location: Northern California

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by J_w73 »

russelldean wrote:Here are my thoughts after trying the new grip today. Ball is more comfortable on hand. Do not feel the stress on hand.Weight feels closer to the index finger, allowing me to stay open in the back and not fight early turn. Ball comes off thumb faster yet not early. I think this will help with versatility. My track seemed to migrate closer to holes, which concerned me that I had lost tilt. When I measured however, tilt had not changed. Not real sure I can tell if revs or rotation have changed, but the balls just feels good and comes off consistently. Well Done Bill Hall...

You mentioned weight feeling closer to the index finger. Where did you feel the weight on your standard drilled equipment. I thought the tri-grip was supposed to get the weight more in the palm and across the base of the middle and ring???
Last edited by J_w73 on September 14th, 2013, 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
User avatar
russelldean
BCU Graduate Layouts
BCU Graduate Layouts
Posts: 877
Joined: February 14th, 2011, 6:09 am
THS Average: 230
Positive Axis Point: 5 up 1/4
Speed: 20
Rev Rate: 400
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 60
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: pasco wa

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by russelldean »

That's what I had read as well. My normal grip seemed to balance the weight more evenly. I did decide to shorten my span a hair with this grip. Not sure if that made a difference or not.
Please click the Green Button, If i have been helpful..
User avatar
odddood
Member
Member
Posts: 179
Joined: February 10th, 2010, 6:42 am
THS Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2 and 0
Speed: 16 mph
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 20
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Vivid /Rex
Medium Oil Ball: Yeti
Light Oil Ball: IQ Tour
Preferred Company: Radical / Motive / Storm
Location: So Cal
Contact:

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by odddood »

Ok here what I found out. Please DO NOT UPDATE you computer's Bios!!! If you do the machine ID will change and your so call tri grip video will no longer work. I just found out mine don't work and Bill wants $200 for another copy. So please make a note :)
User avatar
physicsnmotionlowrg
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 46
Joined: September 4th, 2013, 5:39 pm
Heavy Oil Ball: Pyramid Chosen Path
Medium Oil Ball: Seismic Venator
Light Oil Ball: Pyramid Origin
Preferred Company: Good Bowling Balls, no company
Location: philadelphia, pa

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by physicsnmotionlowrg »

There is something so fundamental that is being missed here in the dissection of the tri grip. I have taken both Mo's class, and also Bill's student and have learned the Tri Grip.

Mo's statement anything that is mathematical can be copied, cannot be argued, it's a fact.

However, the tri grip is not so simple, it is not just a mathematically based layout. Where as when I layout a ball with a CLT, and I use both often, I use the same span and pitches all of the time now that I have found my fit.

If you were to take a tri grip ball of mine and copy it on a ball that was laid out differently than the ball you chose to duplicate, it would not feel right. As someone who has studied a bit of Kinesiology like Bill, I would argue that the Tri Grip is not completely mathematical.

If I drill a ball that's 70 x 3 x 35 my pitches are a bit different than if I drill a ball that's 55x3x30. The tri grip has so much more to do with comfort and feel, and therefore the pitches vary based on how the ball falls in your hand after you complete the initial steps.

If you looked at my tri grip balls, the would all look the same. If you tried to duplicate them by choosing one at random and then picking layout at random, it would not be as comfortable.

In a dual angle ball, the angles effect the pitches I end up choosing, I would argue that it is a lot less mathematical after you learn the system and a lot more based on feel. While your span remains the same, your pitches will vary. That is what I have found.
MWhite
Member
Member
Posts: 457
Joined: July 4th, 2012, 11:29 pm
Location: Riverside Ca

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by MWhite »

odddood wrote:Ok here what I found out. Please DO NOT UPDATE you computer's Bios!!! If you do the machine ID will change and your so call tri grip video will no longer work. I just found out mine don't work and Bill wants $200 for another copy. So please make a note :)
Is the video a physical thing that is shipped to you? Or is there a Download Link?

I've purchased the video, but the only download link i've seen is for the invoice (pdf)

Did I miss something, or do I just need more patience?
User avatar
physicsnmotionlowrg
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 46
Joined: September 4th, 2013, 5:39 pm
Heavy Oil Ball: Pyramid Chosen Path
Medium Oil Ball: Seismic Venator
Light Oil Ball: Pyramid Origin
Preferred Company: Good Bowling Balls, no company
Location: philadelphia, pa

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by physicsnmotionlowrg »

No you should have a PDF file explaining everything, with the video download. Then it will have a machine id that you email Bill and he will send you your personal passwordl.
User avatar
bowl1820
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 1470
Joined: July 9th, 2012, 10:09 pm
Location: Central Florida

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by bowl1820 »

physicsnmotionlowrg wrote:There is something so fundamental that is being missed here in the dissection of the tri grip. I have taken both Mo's class, and also Bill's student and have learned the Tri Grip.

Mo's statement anything that is mathematical can be copied, cannot be argued, it's a fact.

However, the tri grip is not so simple, it is not just a mathematically based layout. Where as when I layout a ball with a CLT, and I use both often, I use the same span and pitches all of the time now that I have found my fit.

If you were to take a tri grip ball of mine and copy it on a ball that was laid out differently than the ball you chose to duplicate, it would not feel right. As someone who has studied a bit of Kinesiology like Bill, I would argue that the Tri Grip is not completely mathematical.

If I drill a ball that's 70 x 3 x 35 my pitches are a bit different than if I drill a ball that's 55x3x30. The tri grip has so much more to do with comfort and feel, and therefore the pitches vary based on how the ball falls in your hand after you complete the initial steps.

If you looked at my tri grip balls, the would all look the same. If you tried to duplicate them by choosing one at random and then picking layout at random, it would not be as comfortable.

In a dual angle ball, the angles effect the pitches I end up choosing, I would argue that it is a lot less mathematical after you learn the system and a lot more based on feel. While your span remains the same, your pitches will vary. That is what I have found.

So if you use the Tri Grip system, you have to have a different set of grip spec's (Finger pitches) for every different layout you use on a ball?

Sounds like that would make a lot money for the pro shop, you could charge a customer for a refit everytime they want a different layout.
Last edited by bowl1820 on September 18th, 2013, 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."
JohnP
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3432
Joined: January 31st, 2010, 1:04 am
Positive Axis Point: 15 15/16 x 3/16
Speed: 13.5 (Qubica)
Axis Tilt: 13
Axis Rotation: 45
Location: Hawesville KY/Tell City IN

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by JohnP »

I can't comment on how the tri-grip parameters are established. But you're going to have to explain why, after a ball has been drilled, I can't measure hole sizes, pitches, and spans and duplicate that on a second ball with a different dual angle layout. -- JohnP
J_w73
Member
Member
Posts: 915
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
THS Average: 210
Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17 mph
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 45+
Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
Location: Northern California

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by J_w73 »

physicsnmotionlowrg wrote:There is something so fundamental that is being missed here in the dissection of the tri grip. I have taken both Mo's class, and also Bill's student and have learned the Tri Grip.

Mo's statement anything that is mathematical can be copied, cannot be argued, it's a fact.

However, the tri grip is not so simple, it is not just a mathematically based layout. Where as when I layout a ball with a CLT, and I use both often, I use the same span and pitches all of the time now that I have found my fit.

If you were to take a tri grip ball of mine and copy it on a ball that was laid out differently than the ball you chose to duplicate, it would not feel right. As someone who has studied a bit of Kinesiology like Bill, I would argue that the Tri Grip is not completely mathematical.

If I drill a ball that's 70 x 3 x 35 my pitches are a bit different than if I drill a ball that's 55x3x30. The tri grip has so much more to do with comfort and feel, and therefore the pitches vary based on how the ball falls in your hand after you complete the initial steps.

If you looked at my tri grip balls, the would all look the same. If you tried to duplicate them by choosing one at random and then picking layout at random, it would not be as comfortable.

In a dual angle ball, the angles effect the pitches I end up choosing, I would argue that it is a lot less mathematical after you learn the system and a lot more based on feel. While your span remains the same, your pitches will vary. That is what I have found.
Why are your pitches different on a 70 x 3 x 35 ball versus a 55x3x30 ball??? I don't see how grip specs and ball layout have anything to do with each other. And once the holes are in the ball, the holes and pitches can be copied to another ball. Like Mo says it is spherical geometry, nothing super special or secret. If the span and pitches are measured accurately on both balls, it can be done. Pick a reference point, measure, and do it. It is just that simple.
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
User avatar
rrb6699
Member
Member
Posts: 797
Joined: June 22nd, 2013, 12:24 am
THS Average: 235
Sport Average: 211
Positive Axis Point: 4 ovr, 1 up
Speed: 12-18.5 mph at pin deck
Rev Rate: 360
Axis Tilt: 15
Axis Rotation: 65
Heavy Oil Ball: 15#-Incognito, Obsession Sld, Altered Reality, Astrophyx Prl
Medium Oil Ball: 16# Quantum Violet, Honey Badger Rev, Venom Shock
Light Oil Ball: 15#: StarTrak Ureth -Sky Blue
Preferred Company: Radical, Storm/Roto, Brunswk
Location: Central Florida

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by rrb6699 »

i agree that any grip can be copied. just makes sense. i did not try this grip but, i did something similar by accident and did find the same "feel" as what you are describing the tri-grip does. I can throw 0 or under thumb pitched balls i have with my thumbtip only. this puts my hand and fingers in a similar position as the tri-grip or no-thumb (to some degree). my tilt goes up about 8 degrees when i do this from 15 to ~23degrees.

based on that i wanted to try a thumb pitch away from palm laterally and see how it works. I will let you know what happens. i have a ball to drill up soon and may opt to have this type of thumb pitch. but, if you want to feel what you are describing, see if you can throw any of your balls thumb tip. it forces your ball weight on to the base of the fingers and you have no choice but to hold your hand sideways which forced me 'inside' the ball through the release.

of course the thumb clears very nice and clean too.

rr
Tweenr-RH
300-(15) 290-(37) 280-(31)
Ser-1075-4gm, 867-3gm
speed dominant
Tilt: low°, Ax Rot: ~....°, PAP: 3 7/8 over- 1/2 up; Speed: 17.5mph Avg downlane
Several Wins/Top 5 Finishes-scr/hdcp tournaments.
MWhite
Member
Member
Posts: 457
Joined: July 4th, 2012, 11:29 pm
Location: Riverside Ca

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by MWhite »

physicsnmotionlowrg wrote:No you should have a PDF file explaining everything, with the video download. Then it will have a machine id that you email Bill and he will send you your personal passwordl.
I guess I had a patience deficiency.

There was an E-Mail with the PDF file attached in my inbox.

Part of the confusion was that the E-Mails about the purchase were from Bill Hall,
and later the PDF file came in a message from William Hall.

Yes, I'm that easily confused.
MWhite
Member
Member
Posts: 457
Joined: July 4th, 2012, 11:29 pm
Location: Riverside Ca

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by MWhite »

JohnP wrote:I can't comment on how the tri-grip parameters are established. But you're going to have to explain why, after a ball has been drilled, I can't measure hole sizes, pitches, and spans and duplicate that on a second ball with a different dual angle layout. -- JohnP
After Reviewing the Video, if you took a ball that has been drilled using the Tri-Grip and measured for pitches, you would get numbers different than what the original driller used. But you can use the numbers you measured and drill a ball exactly the same. The reason the numbers would be different from the original driller is he probably used a different reference system.

In my opinion, the different reference system is somewhat incompatible with the dual angle process.

When laying out a ball using the dual angle process, you end up with a grip centerline, and midline.

Neither of those were used with the Tri-Grip system, so it's left to the driller to workout the adjustments required to make the two systems compatible.

There was a reference to the Pin and Mass Bias location adjustments, so I may be wrong, but it felt to me as if something was missing to make the dual angle process work seamlessly.
Bhb
Industry Professional
Industry Professional
Posts: 3
Joined: September 8th, 2013, 1:29 am

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by Bhb »

It amazes me how many posts there are by those that have not even worked with the Tri-Grip Method. So let me put this another way before I close out my end of this conversation. If you look up any type of kinesiology it states that "if" the thumb is the axis point that the linear lines of the hand and the vector in which they create will therefore be part of the maximum strength with the least amount of effort if those lines are based "solely" on the radius of the object that is being gripped in the hand. That is simple enough to understand. Degree of pitches make a huge difference in what is established for the hand's motion and natural "shape". That also is simple enough.
As for the Tri-Grip and the "dual angle" layout, it is established with a mere 5/16" additional movement towards the positive axis point than what you would do with a standard T grip.
For those that have understood and taken the Tri-Grip into your shops, I truly appreciate it. For those that haven't or won't I respect your decisions as well. But one final thought, since a pin placement can change the leverage of a core based on a axis point, and the thumb is the axis point of the hand, then why wouldn't a different layout create a different leverage for the hand? Seems simple enough. I thank you all for your time and for me the subject is closed. The true test is those that have moved forward in offering an alternative to their players and customers.
Thank you,
Bill Hall
J_w73
Member
Member
Posts: 915
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
THS Average: 210
Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17 mph
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 45+
Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
Location: Northern California

Re: the TRI GRIP disection

Post by J_w73 »

I have tried it and didn't like. I wanted to like it. That is why I searched for someone that did it and drove 60 miles one way to have it done. Bill can you look at my fitted pitches and the final pitches (measured on a t line) and determine if my ball was drilled correctly. I would like to give the method an honest evaluation and if my ball isn't correct then there is no way I can do a true test.
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
Post Reply