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 Post subject: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:37 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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I was reading the Pro Shop Operators magazine by Bowlers Journal and it listed the Voodoo layout, invented by Dave Kreuter. It basically mentions it as a layout that low rev customers of his have had real success with.

It puts the pin 3-4" above the fingers and a 1" balance hole 4" deep at a distance of 9 1/4" from the center of grip. It mentioned it took a Dark Encounter from an .052 differential to a .072 differential with this drilling.

My question is, without the power of BluePrint (because there's no way I'm paying 500 dollars to only have drill information for ebi products) is there a way to ensure the customers don't flare over that balance hole, given that I already have their specs?

I have a few customers itching to try it after I mentioned it to them and I don't want to have it backfire. Thanks guys!

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 Post subject: Re: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:31 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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After drilling the gripping holes you can mark the proposed balance hole location with two or three layers of white tape and see if the ball hits them. But the balance hole is going to change the dynamics and if the change in differential is as much as reported it will flare more and may still hit it. If you give more details of the bowlers specs, the specs of the proposed ball, and the layout including exact balance hole location someone who has Blueprint and is interested could find an Ebonite ball with similar specs and check it for you. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:27 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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can you post a link or where can i find more info on this layout? what is it supossed to do? where does the MB ends up in that kind of layout?


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 Post subject: Re: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:41 am Post Number: #4 Post
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I'll give that a try John. I imagine the change the balance hole makes will make the track shift toward the hole so maybe ill try and think of something.

I will have to look for a documented drilling for it. Like I said, I saw it in the bowlers journal pro shop magazine.

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 Post subject: Re: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:46 am Post Number: #5 Post
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From the author of the article:

http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtopic.php?p=53856#p53856

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 Post subject: Re: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:31 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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MegaMav wrote:


I don't think this was the article gtkpr31 was talking about.

The article was in the BJI Proshop Operator Issue #3.

It talked about 3 different layouts. Rico, Fuller Roller, Boomer and Voodoo(layout is 57 x 5" x 7).

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 Post subject: Re: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:44 am Post Number: #7 Post
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57*5"5* ?

Is it the same for every bowler?

Anyone has ever drilled one of these? doesnt it makes the hook phase like, very, very short?

i also believe 57* Drilling Angle is way too precise....


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 Post subject: Re: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:56 am Post Number: #8 Post
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The dual angle they refer to was what was measured after drilling. From what I was inferring, they picked a pin distance above the fingers, then placed the hole, then measured what the dual angle came out to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:25 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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I wonder if the chicken and tea leaves were sacrificed before or after putting the lines on the ball...

:roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:17 am Post Number: #10 Post
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xclusix wrote:
57*5"5* ?

Is it the same for every bowler?

Anyone has ever drilled one of these? doesnt it makes the hook phase like, very, very short?

i also believe 57* Drilling Angle is way too precise....


From memory, the layout is designed to max top weight and diffs for low rev players. The ball rolls early, flare takes the top weight to effectively side weight which then makes the ball axis precess anticlockwise, like a lawn bowl. The ball seems to be much more effective with low axis rotation.

I just drillled a ball with a 7.5" deep thumbhole, 2.5oz top after drilling and increased total flare by maybe 25-30% relative to a 2.75" depth thumb. Bowler was very impressed with the difference. Hooks more and carries better.

Edit - the one I drilled with the voodoo layout (or at least my best guess for it) I had the bowler roll the ball then just placed the balance hole left of the first flare ring. It moved further from the hole after drilling the hole, fwiw,

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Last edited by LabRat on Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:22 am Post Number: #11 Post
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gtkpr31 wrote:
The dual angle they refer to was what was measured after drilling. From what I was inferring, they picked a pin distance above the fingers, then placed the hole, then measured what the dual angle came out to be.


With a 5° val angle the pin should end above the PAP not above the fingers.
Exception, would be a PAP very close to the grip centre.

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 Post subject: Re: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:30 am Post Number: #12 Post
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CptZotti wrote:
gtkpr31 wrote:
The dual angle they refer to was what was measured after drilling. From what I was inferring, they picked a pin distance above the fingers, then placed the hole, then measured what the dual angle came out to be.


With a 5° val angle the pin should end above the PAP not above the fingers.
Exception, would be a PAP very close to the grip centre.

Cüs,
Zotti


Yeah I thought that too, but if you place the pin high enough it is both above the fingers and has a low val angle (since the VAL and GCL meet at the pole). Welcome to spherical geometry, lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:33 am Post Number: #13 Post
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That may be true if you're working with normal pin to pap distances. But keep in mind that the pin is placed 3-4" above the ring finger. So super long pin distances can end up with small Val angles.

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 Post subject: Re: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:12 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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The philosophy behind this layout is to maximize the ball's static imbalance and to get the ball's axis of rotation to migrate such that it passes closely by the as-drilled CG towards the end of the lane. In general, you want to start with a ball with high top weight and a long pin-to-CG distance and you will generally end up using long pin-to-PAP distances, high drilling angles, and low VAL angles. Also, this layout generally is best used on low rev bowlers, as it tends to make the ball change direction down-lane pretty strongly.

Attached is an example of what this layout might look like, for the benefit of those that have not read the magazine article mentioned above. This layout is 85 x 6 x 10, with a 1" x 3" balance hole 12 inches above grip center. The bowler here has an 18 MPH ball speed, a 240 RPM rev rate, 50 degrees of axis rotation, and 10 degrees of axis tilt with a PAP of 5" over by 0" up/down.

Attachment:
Voodoo_Layout_Example.jpg


The layout and balance hole you end up with for a given bowler and bowling ball should maximize the ball's static imbalance and make the ball flare such that its axis of rotation migrates as closely as possible past the as-drilled CG, while keeping the ball flare-safe and statically legal. My biased opinion is that Blueprint is the tool that lets you achieve all of these goals most reliably. That said, a very good and very experienced ball driller might be able to get fairly close without Blueprint.

An important point to make here is that you aren't just trying to maximize flare...you want to have the right amount of flare so that the "left half" of the ball gets progressively heavier on the backend of the lane as the ball approaches the pins. If the ball flares too far past the as-drilled CG, then you lose some of the effect of this static imbalance.

If you think of the traditional "three phases of ball motion" model, this type of layout will make the ball transition through the "hook phase" pretty quickly. The interesting thing about static imbalance, however, is that a ball with significant imbalance can continue to hook after it enters the roll phase. The amount and direction of this extra hook depends on the amount of static imbalance and the orientation of the static imbalance relative to the ball's axis of rotation. This layout maximizes the imbalance and puts it in the right spot for continued hook during the roll phase. The amount of extra hook that we're talking about here is pretty minimal (maybe about 1 board over the last five or so feet of the lane), but it can have a significant impact on the ball's entry angle (close to 1 degree more than "traditional" layouts, in some cases).


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 Post subject: Re: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:41 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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Very great insight, BluePrint! I tried the Blueprint trial and I loved it and I think it's a great tool, I simply can't afford it since I only manage the pro shop here and I don't own it. It's really beneficial and I could see it working out for anything.

I am trying this layout next week on a customer and will report back on the results.

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 Post subject: Re: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:04 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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Does the track flare over the balance hole? I can't tell from the Blueprint drawings. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:41 am Post Number: #17 Post
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JohnP wrote:
Does the track flare over the balance hole? I can't tell from the Blueprint drawings. -- JohnP

Sorry JohnP...the below image shows the flare on the other side of the ball.

Attachment:
Voodoo_Layout_Example_2.jpg


When you do this correctly, you don't flare over the balance hole. You aim to put the balance hole just above the bow-tie. If you do it incorrectly and make any mistakes along the way, flaring over the balance hole is certainly a possibility!


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 Post subject: Re: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:03 am Post Number: #18 Post
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How deep are the gripping holes in the model above? How heavy a top wt before drilling.


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 Post subject: Re: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:52 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
How deep are the gripping holes in the model above? How heavy a top wt before drilling.


The finger holes are 2 1/4" deep and the thumb is 3" deep. The starting top weight was 4 ounces. If you have less starting top weight, you can go with shallower finger holes and/or a larger balance hole in order to achieve the desired post-drilled top weight of close to 3 ounces.

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 Post subject: Re: Voodoo Layout
 Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:45 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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Quote:
Attached is an example of what this layout might look like, for the benefit of those that have not read the magazine article mentioned above. This layout is 85 x 6 x 10, with a 1" x 3" balance hole 12 inches above grip center. The bowler here has an 18 MPH ball speed, a 240 RPM rev rate, 50 degrees of axis rotation, and 10 degrees of axis tilt with a PAP of 5" over by 0" up/down.


Can you compare the 12" holes effect on migration and ball path compared to a traditional double thumb balance hole?

I have used the opposite end of the axis on p3 and p4 holes to great effect when static imbalance is not in favor of the traditional placement and noticed the anticipated change in ball motion and spin times. I am curious to what differences the computer model shows...

thanks!

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