Long pins on asym question

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Long pins on asym question

Post by Rjf300 »

Can some one explain this to me what causes a long pin on an Asym ball to burn off tilt ? Also why does the 6" asym ball not reduce flare, Unlike the 6" pin sym ball. If you don't feel like explain this to me just tell me where I can find the info. Basically what is the ball doing ? and why ?

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Re: Long pins on asym question

Post by LabRat »

Conservation of angular momentum. The long pin places the core in a position where the precession of the balls axis actively reduces the tilt and rotation. Asyms have greater asymmetry than syms, so greater gyroscopic forces at work.
As far as still flaring with 6" pins, the mass bias/PSA can be looked at as a secondary pin. Note than a 6" pin asym with the PSA close to the PAP won't flare much more than a sym. Once the PSA is placed away from the PAP you still have a relatively high diff ball which drives the flare.
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Re: Long pins on asym question

Post by cheech »

i have another question with long asym pin placement. since long pins on asyms want to make the ball lose tilt and roll forward, is there a way to make an angular reaction using the long pin to increase flare? or should you go with the shorter pin to retain tilt and use a flare increasing balance hole?
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Re: Long pins on asym question

Post by elgavachon »

cheech wrote:i have another question with long asym pin placement. since long pins on asyms want to make the ball lose tilt and roll forward, is there a way to make an angular reaction using the long pin to increase flare? or should you go with the shorter pin to retain tilt and use a flare increasing balance hole?
Stick to the shorter pins with your low tilt & rotation.
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Re: Long pins on asym question

Post by Mo Pinel »

Rjf300 wrote:Can some one explain this to me what causes a long pin on an Asym ball to burn off tilt ? Also why does the 6" asym ball not reduce flare, Unlike the 6" pin sym ball. If you don't feel like explain this to me just tell me where I can find the info. Basically what is the ball doing ? and why ?

Thank you .
Mo and Friends/General Discussion - Track Flare Study! It's a sticky thread. It's all there.
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Re: Long pins on asym question

Post by LabRat »

cheech wrote:i have another question with long asym pin placement. since long pins on asyms want to make the ball lose tilt and roll forward, is there a way to make an angular reaction using the long pin to increase flare? or should you go with the shorter pin to retain tilt and use a flare increasing balance hole?
Flare maxes out at 3 3/8", it just doesn't decrease as you increase pin distance on asyms like it does on syms. So a longer pin on asyms doesn't increase flare from the 3 3/8 amount, so there is no point to go longer for more flare, you do it to alter roll/transitions.
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Re: Long pins on asym question

Post by cheech »

LabRat wrote: Flare maxes out at 3 3/8", it just doesn't decrease as you increase pin distance on asyms like it does on syms. So a longer pin on asyms doesn't increase flare from the 3 3/8 amount, so there is no point to go longer for more flare, you do it to alter roll/transitions.
o really? looking at the picture in the "dual angle technique" article looks like it has that effect. now i have a whole new dimension to look at when laying out asymetrics lol. so the longer the pin after 3 3/8" does not increase flare but makes it burn off tilt.(on asyms) thanks for the info!
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Re: Long pins on asym question

Post by xclusix »

LabRat wrote: Flare maxes out at 3 3/8", it just doesn't decrease as you increase pin distance on asyms like it does on syms. So a longer pin on asyms doesn't increase flare from the 3 3/8 amount, so there is no point to go longer for more flare, you do it to alter roll/transitions.

Im confused here, in the page 4 of Track Flare Study by Blueprint it show a good increase of probably 1" from 3 3/8 to 5 5/8, when using strong Drilling angles.

Also, im wondering if the PSA to PAP distance would only reduce flare minimally as in the example Blueprint provided here:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6287" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I mean, the flare there its reduced only a little, and the movement of the PSA towards the PAP is HUGE... probably like the difference between a 70 and a 10 degree drilling angle.......

Also, the examples in the Track Flare Study show that with a strong assymetrical cored ball, a bowler with the PAP 5 inches over and half up, even if the PSA moves pretty close to the PAP, (my estimate is that with that bowler, and 5 3/4 PIN TO PAP, PSA ends up about 2.5 inches from PAP)
there is still a pretty good increase in flare.

Probably EVEN MORE increase can be seen with bigger Drilling Angles and less increase with smaller angles... its splitting hairs i think right now, and i think that as long as you stay within Dual Angles system borders you can safely do things like long pins on Asyms.

Remember this borders are 10° min drilling angle, 3/4 to 6 1/4 pin to pap, 20° VAL angle.

I am about to drill a 20*5 3/4*25 strong asym. to have a midlane rolling ball with good flare and im pretty confident about it, and unless any of the gurus here says its a very stupid layout and wont work at all, ill have it drilled by the weekend.

Labrat, of course you are one of gurus im talking about, so feel free to comment.... :P
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Re: Long pins on asym question

Post by LabRat »

Lol, I'm no guru and feeling less and less like one the more time I spend on here, so much to learn...
Went back to the Blueprint study, and flare on asyms really is very layout dependent. Thats why they are so powerful in the hands on a real technician, the ability to dial in both the amount of flare and the rate they burn tilt/rotation is so important.
You should be able to max flare in asyms at 3 3/8 pin-PAP (layout dependent) I think, which is what I was getting at very clumsily. Because that max (or less) flare is available at pin-PAPs up to 6" plus, that enables the driller to choose a pin distance to optimise both flare and burn, ie you choose a pin and layout to get both the flare and the transitions you want.
Back to the question in the op, the axis migration path changes as one goes from short pin distances to medium to long from clockwise elliptical to 'straight' across the grip to anticlockwise elliptical. I think it's the anti clockwise axis precession that helps 'line up' the rotation and tilt with the lane faster. This happens on asyms rather than syms because the rg contours are much more elliptical with long pins due to the strong PSA (they loop around the PSA) and the ball retains flare potential at long pin distances so it can actually utilise the elliptical pathways.
Hopefully one of the real gurus can either correct that or explain it better lol. :)

On edit - not sure elliptical is the right word, but the migration pathways go from being great circles across the grip at medium pin lengths to curving 'up' at short pins and 'down' at long pin lengths. I think. :)
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Re: Long pins on asym question

Post by The Kid »

This was what I gathered a while ago:
For symmetricals, imagine a bell-curve with the "hump" at 3 3/8" pin-to-PAP. The further from that distance (towards 0" or 6 3/4"), the less flare- which typically means less hook overall. Distances less than 3 3/8" react sooner than distances greater than 3 3/8", I assume because the RG of the PAP is lower when the pin is closer to the PAP. So, pin-to-PAP distances of 2 3/8" and 4 3/8" will flare about the same amount, but the first will hook earlier and be smoother, while the second will hook later and sharper.

For asymmetricals, there is only one possible "stable" place to put the pin: on the PAP (0" pin-to-PAP). As you increase towards 2 3/4", flare increases, so the ball typically hooks more overall. From 2 3/4" to 6 1/4", the amount of flare didn't change much, but how the ball reacts does. Between 2 3/4" and 4", the ball retains axis rotation longer and thus comes off the spot harder. Between 4" and 5", the ball comes off the spot less, but still some. At greater than 5", the ball loses axis rotation quickly and thus is very flat off the spot. Shorter distances in the 2 3/4"-6 1/4" range should be used to cover more boards (more hook, side-to-side). Medium distances should be used when facing heavier volumes of oil, but still wanting to cover boards. The largest distances should be used to play straightest, because the ball will not recover on inside to outside angles.
The Blueprint Track Flare Study altered and clarified some of that. It turns out the asymmetrical flare chart should really be a series of charts. I'll try to sum it up pretty generally, using my analysis of that Study:

For strong asymmetricals (intermediate differential >.010, or maybe >.012?)...

1) ...If the ball is drilled with a smaller drilling angle (<60*) and smaller VAL angle (<40*), then the total flare increases as the pin-to-PAP distance increases. The effect declines as you get closer to 5 3/4". That is: a 1 1/8" change for smaller pin-to-PAP distances gives a greater increase in flare than the same change for larger pin-to-PAP distances. For example, when changing a 919C from 50*x1 1/8"x30* to 50*x2 1/4"x30*, the total flare increased 2.2". Compare to changing a 919C from 50*x4 1/2"x30* to 50*x5 5/8"x30*, where the total flare increased .4".

2) ...If the ball is drilled with a larger drilling angle (>60*) and smaller VAL angle (<40*), then the total flare more closely resembles the "bell curve" of the symmetrical flare chart. The difference is that the total flare is at a maximum when the pin-to-PAP is somewhere between 4" and 4 1/2", rather than 3 3/8". Also, the closer the drilling angle is to 90*, the sharper the decline in total flare for longer pin-to-PAP distances. For example, changing a 919C from 70*x5 3/4"x30* to 90*x5 3/4"x30*, the total flare decreased by 2.7".

3) ...If the ball is drilled with a smaller drilling angle (<60*) and larger VAL angle (>40*), then total flare increases as the pin-to-PAP distance increases. This is similar to the first case (smaller drilling angle, smaller VAL angle). Not much is available on specifics of how things work here, so I can will guess that the effect if increasing the pin-to-PAP has a diminishing effect on total flare, as shown with the first case above.

4) ...If the ball is drilled with a larger drilling angle (>60*) and larger VAL angle (>40*), then the total flare is extremely small for larger pin-to-PAP distances. It's not clear from the Study's data, but it seems that the maximum track flare would be with pin-to-PAP distances near 3 3/8", with decreasing total flare for increases in pin-to-PAP distances beyond that.
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Re: Long pins on asym question

Post by xclusix »

very interesting as always The Kid, i was wondering if you can elaborate a little more on how a longer PIN to PAP ball will roll, besides being smooth at the breakpoint, will it roll earlier?

Lets say a bowler its seeing his transition to roll at about 58 feet, if he wanted to move it earlier, could he use a longer pin to pap, and maybe even lower sums to compensate the loss of hook?
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Re: Long pins on asym question

Post by The Kid »

I personally only consider the drilling and VAL angles when controlling the distance of the transitions (excluding surface, which actually plays a huge part in when the transitions occur). If you want to get the roll earlier but keep the same shape either:

1) Lower both the drilling angle and VAL angles in proportion to their ratio. For example, reduce a 60°x4"x30° to 50°x4"x25°. This shortens both transitions, but the overall shape will be similar.

2) Lower the drilling angle only, moving both transitions toward you by about the same amount, keeping the hook zone nearly the same but earlier.
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Re: Long pins on asym question

Post by elgavachon »

xclusix wrote:very interesting as always The Kid, i was wondering if you can elaborate a little more on how a longer PIN to PAP ball will roll, besides being smooth at the breakpoint, will it roll earlier?

Lets say a bowler its seeing his transition to roll at about 58 feet, if he wanted to move it earlier, could he use a longer pin to pap, and maybe even lower sums to compensate the loss of hook?
Mo has said that the break-point will be the same distance down the lane in asymmetrical balls with 3 1/4" to 5 3/4" (if the only thing different is the pin to pap). It will just have a different shape. I will see if I can find where to help clarify this statement.
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Re: Long pins on asym question

Post by elgavachon »

elgavachon wrote: Mo has said that the break-point will be the same distance down the lane in asymmetrical balls with 3 1/4" to 5 3/4" (if the only thing different is the pin to pap). It will just have a different shape. I will see if I can find where to help clarify this statement.
I was wrong. the quote was 3 1/4" to 6". (see #15)
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=315&p=2652&hilit=b ... hape#p2652" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Long pins on asym question

Post by elgavachon »

xclusix wrote:very interesting as always The Kid, i was wondering if you can elaborate a little more on how a longer PIN to PAP ball will roll, besides being smooth at the breakpoint, will it roll earlier?
Here is another thread asking this. One member asked:

"If it'd be easier, maybe you can just explain, or compare these layouts to eachother.
Let's use the new Mania as an example.
In the hands of a single bowler, all specs the exact same.
Using 10x3x20 vs 10x4x20 vs 10x5x20 on a Heavy House Shot.
What would be the 3 differences between these 3 balls, where all angles remain the same, the only factor is Pin to Pap distance, on asymmetrical ball?"

Mo's answer taken from: viewtopic.php?t=260" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mo Pinel wrote:
Let's talk about the three pin to PAP distances for your 10 / 20 drilling on an asymmetrical ball. This should help your understanding of exactly what is going on. The first and second transition points will be the same for all three pin to PAP distances. The difference will be in the angular change in direction caused by those different pin to PAP distances. The 3" pin to PAP distance will change direction the most. The 4" pin to PAP distance will result in a medium change in direction. The 5" pin to PAP distance will result in the least change of direction. The break point will be the same distance down the lane for all the pin to PAP distances, but the break point will have a different shape. The ball with the 3" pin to PAP distance will cover the most boards going down the lane and the ball with the 5" pin to PAP distance will cover the least amount of boards, but they will rev up the same and at the same distance down the lane.

This should give you an accurate picture of what is happening.
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Re: Long pins on asym question

Post by Triplicate »

elgavachon wrote: Here is another thread asking this. One member asked:

"If it'd be easier, maybe you can just explain, or compare these layouts to eachother.
Let's use the new Mania as an example.
In the hands of a single bowler, all specs the exact same.
Using 10x3x20 vs 10x4x20 vs 10x5x20 on a Heavy House Shot.
What would be the 3 differences between these 3 balls, where all angles remain the same, the only factor is Pin to Pap distance, on asymmetrical ball?"

Mo's answer taken from: viewtopic.php?t=260" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Looks like your going to have over 2 oz of side and perhaps some excessive finger weight to remove with this layout. How do you want to remove that? Maybe I missed it but I don't see anything here about any weight hole. Give me a PAP to use here also and I'll show you the flare for all three pin lengths.
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Re: Long pins on asym question

Post by elgavachon »

Triplicate wrote: Looks like your going to have over 2 oz of side and perhaps some excessive finger weight to remove with this layout. How do you want to remove that? Maybe I missed it but I don't see anything here about any weight hole. Give me a PAP to use here also and I'll show you the flare for all three pin lengths.
You would actually probably only use the layout with the 5" pin. This was just from another thread where someone wanted to compare the pin to pap distances.

You wouldn't drill this layout except with a long pin and a low top wt. on pre-drilled ball.
If you are running them up, use a high asymmetric ball with a 5" pin to cg distance and a 2 1/2 top wt with a balance hole on P4. thanks Triplicate
You would also only use it on a very high tilt player. Try 4 1/4" over 1" up and see what you get.
You will need fingers deep.
It is the break shape that Mo was emphasizing (not the flare).
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Re: Long pins on asym question

Post by Triplicate »

elgavachon wrote:[You wouldn't drill this layout except with a long pin and a low top wt. on pre-drilled ball.
If you are running them up, use a high asymmetric ball with a 5" pin to cg distance and a 2 1/2 top wt with a balance hole on P4. thanks Triplicate
You would also only use it on a very high tilt player. Try 4 1/4" over 1" up and see what you get.
You will need fingers deep.
It is the break shape that Mo was emphasizing (not the flare).
Here are the results. The 5" pin will work but for this layout but anything shorter than 4.25 pin will get you into trouble. The weight hole location shown is about as close as I can get it without pitching before the holes begin to intersect.

Please find the 4" and 3" pin lengths as well.

I hope this helps!
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Re: Long pins on asym question

Post by EricHartwell »

Triplicate, If its not too much trouble could you blueprint 2" and 1" pins as well?
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Re: Long pins on asym question

Post by Triplicate »

EricHartwell wrote:Triplicate, If its not too much trouble could you blueprint 2" and 1" pins as well?
Done! ;)
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