Calllusses and broken nail on right side of fingers

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Athery
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Calllusses and broken nail on right side of fingers

Post by Athery »

Hi guys,
I posted this earlier in Certified coaching corner. I hope this time I would get the answer.

(Viewing from back of my palm) On the right side of both my middle and ring fingers have slightly thick calluses, and after 3 games, it would both felt very sore. The nail on my ring is also slightly broken on its right side. It was as if when I'm holding and releasing the ball the pressure was more on the right sides of both fingers and not the middle.

My pitch was : middle = < - 1/4 , ring = 3/8 ->

then due to the pain and calluses I adjusted to : Middle = 1/16 -> , ring = 1/2 ->
And yet, the pain is still there.

here the link to my fingers picture:
Image

Do I have to add more pitch to right? by how much? or,
Is it a span issue? (my current span for both fingers is 4 9/16)

Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

(ps: I am still figuring out how to attach the picture of my fingers in this forum. Hope the link above work)
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Re: Calllusses and broken nail on right side of fingers

Post by kellytehuna »

Ok, it sounds to me like your fit is all wrong. Do you have access to a prosect? Or someone who has access to a prosect? If we can figure out what the angle grip is, according to page 4 in Mo's Fitting Instructions, we should be able to figure out what your pitches SHOULD be. From there we should be able to fine tune your fit.

In general, you pitch towards the pain. The fact that you now have both fingers pitched right is a point of concern.

As for the fit, if you put you WHOLE thumb in the ball and lay your fingers across the finger holes, does the leading edge of the hole (or the leading edge of the grip, if you use them) come to about half way between the two creases on the respective fingers? I like to draw a line with a black pen half way between the creases so I can see a mark clearly measure against. If its out by more than a quarter, its either too long, or too short, depending on which way its wrong. Do you feel pressure on your nails when your fingers are in the ball? If so, its definitely too long!
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Re: Calllusses and broken nail on right side of fingers

Post by Mo Pinel »

Athery wrote:Hi guys,
I posted this earlier in Certified coaching corner. I hope this time I would get the answer.

(Viewing from back of my palm) On the right side of both my middle and ring fingers have slightly thick calluses, and after 3 games, it would both felt very sore. The nail on my ring is also slightly broken on its right side. It was as if when I'm holding and releasing the ball the pressure was more on the right sides of both fingers and not the middle.

My pitch was : middle = < - 1/4 , ring = 3/8 ->

then due to the pain and calluses I adjusted to : Middle = 1/16 -> , ring = 1/2 ->
And yet, the pain is still there.

here the link to my fingers picture:
Image

Do I have to add more pitch to right? by how much? or,
Is it a span issue? (my current span for both fingers is 4 9/16)

Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

(ps: I am still figuring out how to attach the picture of my fingers in this forum. Hope the link above work)
kellytehuna is right about pitch. Your changes are in the wrong direction. If the callouses (or sores) are at the tip, you pitch toward it. If the callous (or sore) is at the first joint, you pitch away from it. That's the rule that's always been in effect. I suggest you try 7/16 left in the middle finger and 1/4 right in your ring finger.
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Re: Calllusses and broken nail on right side of fingers

Post by MattInTheHat »

That could explain why my pitch adjustments weren't working for me as well, I tried a couple of pitch moves to the right but none to the left. I'm at 5/16" left and 9/16" right currently (based on the fan chart measurement), I will give 3/8" left and 5/16" right a try.
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Re: Calllusses and broken nail on right side of fingers

Post by Mo Pinel »

MattInTheHat wrote:That could explain why my pitch adjustments weren't working for me as well, I tried a couple of pitch moves to the right but none to the left. I'm at 5/16" left and 9/16" right currently (based on the fan chart measurement), I will give 3/8" left and 5/16" right a try.
If you have the same amount of stress on both fingers, I would move them parallel left. Try 1/2" left by 3/8" right. If there's more stress on one of the fingers, change that finger more than the other.
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Re: Calllusses and broken nail on right side of fingers

Post by Athery »

Mo Pinel wrote:
kellytehuna is right about pitch. Your changes are in the wrong direction. If the callouses (or sores) are at the tip, you pitch toward it. If the callous (or sore) is at the first joint, you pitch away from it. That's the rule that's always been in effect. I suggest you try 7/16 left in the middle finger and 1/4 right in your ring finger.
MO and friends, is it true that when using a wrist guard (the one I'm using is Storm Gadget), we can add at least 1/16 to the finger span? This was told to me by my ball driller.

Also, I have just checked my pitch using the MoRich Fitting system as suggested by Kelly. With a ProSect, I found the angle is at 14* which is close to line B. The chart state my middle should be at ~5/16 left and ~9/16" right. So, which is it gonna be MO? Follow the chart or your suggestion 7/16 left for middle and 1/4 right for ring finger?

Later, I proceed with the span check following the procedures in the MoRich fitting system. With a Jonell Span gauge, the middle is at 4 1/4" and Ring is at 4 5/16". Then I checked my finger flexibility, the middle is around 90* (+1/16 to span) and ring is 70* (use measured span). So the total for middle finger is now 4 5/16" and ring remain the same. Am I on the right track now?
My current span of both finger is 4 9/16" and this was done from the the idea that the line of first joint should be in the center of the hole as showed on the BrunsNick picture from Ask the Bowler link here. http://www.askthebowler.com/measuring_span.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So, right now is if I use 4 5/16 for my new span, the crest of the knuckle would be approximately 3/8" further forward and there is possibility that the span is too short for me. Please explain if there is something that I am missing from the Fitting Guide. I am in learning mode lol. :geek:

Then I checked my thumb angle, which is at 90*-95*. And this I believe would give me 1/16 reverse, Then due to my moist skin I add 1/8" reverse. 3/16 reverse is what I currently use now. More than that the ball would fall off too quickly from my thumb during release. Here is where I stop since I dont have the transparent cylindrical tube to check my lateral thumb pitch. I currently use 0 and 1/8" to left for my lateral pitch and it works just fine so far.

PS: I also forgot to mention that the first knuckle of my fingers also felt sore for like almost 2 years.

Guys, please help me learn these fitting issue.
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Re: Calllusses and broken nail on right side of fingers

Post by kellytehuna »

Looks like you did a good job to me! I would follow Mo's suggestion. He's been doing this stuff a LONG time so he's a lot more accurate with his suggestions. I was just trying to get us ball park figures to get the ball rolling for some of these more experienced guys.

As for determining fit, there are a number of techniques used by a number of ball fitters. Having said that, I've seen a number of articles that suggest that the best fit is found when you measure half way between the knuckles. I know that I was originally fitted based on the first knuckle and I was squeezing the crap out the ball. Since Mo refit me, using the method outlined in that fitting guide, I've all but eliminated squeeze and the grip is a lot more comfortable than it was.
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Re: Calllusses and broken nail on right side of fingers

Post by Mo Pinel »

Athery wrote: MO and friends, is it true that when using a wrist guard (the one I'm using is Storm Gadget), we can add at least 1/16 to the finger span? This was told to me by my ball driller.

Also, I have just checked my pitch using the MoRich Fitting system as suggested by Kelly. With a ProSect, I found the angle is at 14* which is close to line B. The chart state my middle should be at ~5/16 left and ~9/16" right. So, which is it gonna be MO? Follow the chart or your suggestion 7/16 left for middle and 1/4 right for ring finger?

Later, I proceed with the span check following the procedures in the MoRich fitting system. With a Jonell Span gauge, the middle is at 4 1/4" and Ring is at 4 5/16". Then I checked my finger flexibility, the middle is around 90* (+1/16 to span) and ring is 70* (use measured span). So the total for middle finger is now 4 5/16" and ring remain the same. Am I on the right track now?
My current span of both finger is 4 9/16" and this was done from the the idea that the line of first joint should be in the center of the hole as showed on the Brunswick picture from Ask the Bowler link here. http://www.askthebowler.com/measuring_span.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So, right now is if I use 4 5/16 for my new span, the crest of the knuckle would be approximately 3/8" further forward and there is possibility that the span is too short for me. Please explain if there is something that I am missing from the Fitting Guide. I am in learning mode lol. :geek:

Then I checked my thumb angle, which is at 90*-95*. And this I believe would give me 1/16 reverse, Then due to my moist skin I add 1/8" reverse. 3/16 reverse is what I currently use now. More than that the ball would fall off too quickly from my thumb during release. Here is where I stop since I dont have the transparent cylindrical tube to check my lateral thumb pitch. I currently use 0 and 1/8" to left for my lateral pitch and it works just fine so far.

PS: I also forgot to mention that the first knuckle of my fingers also felt sore for like almost 2 years.

Guys, please help me learn these fitting issue.
You guys must be good typers because you can write books. In this case, use the fit that you found from my fitting instructions. Let start from scratch. Don't compromise! Follow the directions completely. Using a wrist brace usually requires SHORTENING the span some, not lengthening it. Do your fitting with your wrist brace on ALWAYS, if you use one. Grab a soda can and post the picture and we can determine your lateral thumb pitch. Forget the suggestion from the Brunswick site about spans. That system was disproved a decade ago.

From your greatly researched info, he's where we currently are. Middle finger: 5/16" left by 1/4" forward (toward the center of the grip); ring finger: 9/16" right by 1/8" forward; middle finger full span 4 5/16"; ring finger full span: 4 5/16"; thumb 1/8" reverse (my call). All we need is the thumb lateral pitch, which I will give you after you post my requested picture. We'll use these specs for a little while and then make adjustments based of the results. NO LIFTS!!!!!!!!!!! OVAL INSERTS ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!

Knowing your use of that suggestion from the Brunswick site, I think we've found the burn problem.
Last edited by Mo Pinel on May 13th, 2010, 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Calllusses and broken nail on right side of fingers

Post by JohnP »

Do you use finger grips? How tightly do your fingers fit in their holes or grips, do you get all of the finger tip in (to the first joint)? What forward/reverse finger pitch do you use, including any forward added by the lift style of grips? Do you hit up on the ball? As much damage you have at the tip of your fingers without any at the first joint I'm thinking your holes might be too small with too much forward pitch. -- JohnP
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Re: Calllusses and broken nail on right side of fingers

Post by Athery »

Mo Pinel wrote:
You guys must be good typers because you can write books. In this case, use the fit that you found from my fitting instructions. Let start from scratch. Don't compromise! Follow the directions completely. Using a wrist brace usually requires SHORTENING the span some, not lengthening it. Do your fitting with your wrist brace on ALWAYS, if you use one. Grab a soda can and post the picture and we can determine your lateral thumb pitch. Forget the suggestion from the Brunswick site about spans. That system was disproved a decade ago.

From your greatly researched info, he's where we currently are. Middle finger: 5/16" left by 1/4" forward (toward the center of the grip); ring finger: 9/16" right by 1/8" forward; middle finger full span 4 5/16"; ring finger full span: 4 5/16"; thumb 1/8" reverse (my call). All we need is the thumb lateral pitch, which I will give you after you post my requested picture. We'll use these specs for a little while and then make adjustments based of the results. NO LIFTS!!!!!!!!!!! OVAL INSERTS ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!

Knowing your use of that suggestion from the Brunswick site, I think we've found the burn problem.
Ok, here is the picture for my thumb lateral pitch.
[img]http://img28.imageshack.us/i/cokebottletest.jpg/[img]
(the link below is just in case the picture wont come out)
http://img28.imageshack.us/i/cokebottletest.jpg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Also remembered that I never use the wrist brace when I last check my span with my ball driller :roll: .

John, yes I used finger grips, (its VISE and used the oval side) drilled the hole 63/64 instead of 31/32 and it it fits just nice, not to tight and not too loose. It's currently 0 reverse/forward and I didnt hit up on the ball.
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Re: Calllusses and broken nail on right side of fingers

Post by Mo Pinel »

Athery wrote: Ok, here is the picture for my thumb lateral pitch.
[img]http://img28.imageshack.us/i/cokebottletest.jpg/[img]
(the link below is just in case the picture wont come out)
http://img28.imageshack.us/i/cokebottletest.jpg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Also remembered that I never use the wrist brace when I last check my span with my ball driller :roll: .

John, yes I used finger grips, (its VISE and used the oval side) drilled the hole 63/64 instead of 31/32 and it it fits just nice, not to tight and not too loose. It's currently 0 reverse/forward and I didnt hit up on the ball.
That's the final piece of the puzzle. Use 1/8" left lateral pitch in the thumb. Drill using the specs and let me know what happens.
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Re: Calllusses and broken nail on right side of fingers

Post by JohnP »

Your RF flexibility is 70* and the damage appears to me to be worse on the RF than on the MF. I would change the RF pitch to 1/4 reverse and the MF to 1/8 reverse if I were fitting you, but Mo has made his recommendations and he's been doing it a lot longer than I have. If those changes don't solve the problem, consider trying reverse. -- JohnP
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Re: Calllusses and broken nail on right side of fingers

Post by Mo Pinel »

JohnP wrote:Your RF flexibility is 70* and the damage appears to me to be worse on the RF than on the MF. I would change the RF pitch to 1/4 reverse and the MF to 1/8 reverse if I were fitting you, but Mo has made his recommendations and he's been doing it a lot longer than I have. If those changes don't solve the problem, consider trying reverse. -- JohnP
I don't disagree, but one thing at a time. I want to start with a base grip. Then, check is delivery stats as well as his hand. Then, make necessary adjustments to improve his delivery as well as his ball motion. This is my preferred procedure when the time is available. Comprendez?
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Re: Calllusses and broken nail on right side of fingers

Post by JohnP »

Mo Pinel wrote: I don't disagree, but one thing at a time. I want to start with a base grip. Then, check is delivery stats as well as his hand. Then, make necessary adjustments to improve his delivery as well as his ball motion. This is my preferred procedure when the time is available. Comprendez?
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Re: Calllusses and broken nail on right side of fingers

Post by Athery »

Its been awhile for me to reply regarding this topic. I was waiting for the balls to be plugged by my pro shop operator.
Ok, last Friday I finally managed to drill one of the ball as instructed by Mo. I bowled about 3 practice games and noticed that my Ring finger (1/8 forward, 9/16 right)is fine (no more sore at this point so far), but my middle finger (1/4 forward, 5/16 left) start to hurt at the first joint. I re-checked my Middle finger flexibility and actually made a mistake in earlier post. It was not 90* flexible, but more to 70* flexible. Now I plan to reduce the span of Middle finger from 4 5/16 to 4 1/4. My query is only the linear / lateral pitch, by how much should I change?
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Re: Calllusses and broken nail on right side of fingers

Post by Mo Pinel »

Athery wrote:Its been awhile for me to reply regarding this topic. I was waiting for the balls to be plugged by my pro shop operator.
Ok, last Friday I finally managed to drill one of the ball as instructed by Mo. I bowled about 3 practice games and noticed that my Ring finger (1/8 forward, 9/16 right)is fine (no more sore at this point so far), but my middle finger (1/4 forward, 5/16 left) start to hurt at the first joint. I re-checked my Middle finger flexibility and actually made a mistake in earlier post. It was not 90* flexible, but more to 70* flexible. Now I plan to reduce the span of Middle finger from 4 5/16 to 4 1/4. My query is only the linear / lateral pitch, by how much should I change?

That's easy. NONE! Let reduce the span only to reduce the stress on the first joint to start with.
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