Pin to weight-hole length on symmetrical balls

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J_w73
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Pin to weight-hole length on symmetrical balls

Post by J_w73 »

From what I know a hole that is 6 3/4 from the Pin will increase the differential and increase the flare..
I am wondering what is the difference in the reaction from say a weight hole that is 6 3/4 from the pin and (1)near the thumbhole versus a hole that is 6 3/4 from the pin and (2)on the VAL or (3)through the PAP??
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Re: Pin to weight-hole length on symmetrical balls

Post by MattCosta7 »

what ball is it on?

if the pin is 6 3/4 to the pap on a symmetric core, you'll get no flare whatsoever. It's already a stable roll. Any xhole, that is 6 3/4" from the pin, and on the pap has this requirement.

Xholes on the pap are 'tame down' holes that lower total diff and intermed diff. These are what Mo would refer to as a P1 position weight hole.

the VAL is a long line, depending on where the pin is placed, 6 3/4" from it, along this line can be anywhere from PAP to the other side of the ball. You'll need to be alittle more specific to get more on that front.

I don't know how 'high flaring' your equipment is, but 6 3/4 from any of my decently strong pin'd balls will end up getting rolled over. There are other positions that will be as effective as the "Gradient Line" holes, but those will typically end up in a track line sooner or later. A ball that bounces won't roll very well.

What are you trying to achieve that You cannot achieve with a gradient line hole? It works with any pin position, and every bowler. Gives you a tame down option, a don't change it option, an increase it option, and a large increase option...All in a safe place that won't end up getting rolled over

What more is needed?
Last edited by MattCosta7 on March 31st, 2010, 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pin to weight-hole length on symmetrical balls

Post by kellytehuna »

I was thinking a little bit about this just a couple of days ago. I was wondering if it was possible to (theoretically) add a hole beyond the VAL, in line with Gradient line, at distance equal to the P2 distance and create a ball 40% weaker.

Obviously, if you want that much less reaction, you could always have bought a weaker ball, I was just interested to know if it was possible. More than likely, you will flare over a hole in that position, but it was something that popped in my head when I was re-reading the Gradient Line article.
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Re: Pin to weight-hole length on symmetrical balls

Post by elgavachon »

kellytehuna wrote:I was thinking a little bit about this just a couple of days ago. I was wondering if it was possible to (theoretically) add a hole beyond the VAL, in line with Gradient line, at distance equal to the P2 distance and create a ball 40% weaker.

Obviously, if you want that much less reaction, you could always have bought a weaker ball, I was just interested to know if it was possible. More than likely, you will flare over a hole in that position, but it was something that popped in my head when I was re-reading the Gradient Line article.
if you go too far past the val, you can flip the axis.
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Re: Pin to weight-hole length on symmetrical balls

Post by kellytehuna »

Yeah, didn't consider that! LOL! Like I said, it was more of a "is this possible?" kind of thing. No intention of using it! LOL! Thanks for the response though. New piece of info for the data bank.
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Re: Pin to weight-hole length on symmetrical balls

Post by J_w73 »

MattCosta7 wrote:what ball is it on?

if the pin is 6 3/4 to the pap on a symmetric core, you'll get no flare whatsoever. It's already a stable roll. Any xhole, that is 6 3/4" from the pin, and on the pap has this requirement.

Xholes on the pap are 'tame down' holes that lower total diff and intermed diff. These are what Mo would refer to as a P1 position weight hole.

the VAL is a long line, depending on where the pin is placed, 6 3/4" from it, along this line can be anywhere from PAP to the other side of the ball. You'll need to be alittle more specific to get more on that front.

I don't know how 'high flaring' your equipment is, but 6 3/4 from any of my decently strong pin'd balls will end up getting rolled over. There are other positions that will be as effective as the "Gradient Line" holes, but those will typically end up in a track line sooner or later. A ball that bounces won't roll very well.

What are you trying to achieve that You cannot achieve with a gradient line hole? It works with any pin position, and every bowler. Gives you a tame down option, a don't change it option, an increase it option, and a large increase option...All in a safe place that won't end up getting rolled over

What more is needed?
I am not talking about a ball that is 6 3/4 from the PAP.. when I said through the PAP I should have been more specific.. I meant 6 3/4 from the pin on a line that runs through the PAP.

I know the gradient line tequnique works .. but really just trying to delve a little bit into how and why.. example.. if you look at the tequnique page the 5 inch pin to pap ball has the P1 reducing the dynamics from the P4 hole the least amount. The 2 1/4 and 3 3/8 pin to pap balls have the P1 hole reducing the dynamics and differential way more compared to the P4 hole and the undrilled ball.

I believe this is because the hole on the PAP is 5" from the pin and removing weight near the side of the core and therefore still increasing flare..On one of the 5" pin to PAP P1 holes it actually has the differential increasing from the undrilled ball. I don't see it on the sheet and would like to see what the differentials are of the "drilled ball" before any weight hole was added.


I am thinking that if you wanted to even reduce the differential even more on the 5" pin to PAP ball that you could put a hole 2 inches from the pin. This would shorten the core and also reduce the rg differential..


I know the placement in relation to the PAP has alot to do with it as far as the asymmetry that is created but I think the distance the hole is from the PIN, which puts the hole in different places on the core, which inturn changes the differential , has alot to do with the reaction acheived.

I'm sure I just made this more confusing cause I'm not sure how well I explained my thoughts.. Here is a picture of what I am talking about for the placements and wondering about the differene in reactions.

What would be the difference in reaction between hole A and B. Or even one that is farther right ... like I said.. maybe a line through the PAP.. Keeping in mind that all the holes are 6 3/4 from the pin

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2798/412 ... 0357_o.jpg.." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
Last edited by J_w73 on March 31st, 2010, 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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J_w73
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Re: Pin to weight-hole length on symmetrical balls

Post by J_w73 »

kellytehuna wrote:I was thinking a little bit about this just a couple of days ago. I was wondering if it was possible to (theoretically) add a hole beyond the VAL, in line with Gradient line, at distance equal to the P2 distance and create a ball 40% weaker.

Obviously, if you want that much less reaction, you could always have bought a weaker ball, I was just interested to know if it was possible. More than likely, you will flare over a hole in that position, but it was something that popped in my head when I was re-reading the Gradient Line article.
that is sort of my point.. if you want to reduce the reaction then the P1 may not be the best option for all Pin to PAP distances. See my other post.

If it is all about reducing the differential and therefore reducing the flare then I would say for a 5 inch pin to PAP ball a hole 2 inches from the pin would definitely reduce the flare more than a hole on the PAP

I understand it will reduce the RG of the ball and would tend to roll up a little sooner but I don't know what would have more of an effect and precedent(sp) .. the lower RG or the lower flare..
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Re: Pin to weight-hole length on symmetrical balls

Post by Mo Pinel »

J_w73 wrote: that is sort of my point.. if you want to reduce the reaction then the P1 may not be the best option for all Pin to PAP distances. See my other post.

If it is all about reducing the differential and therefore reducing the flare then I would say for a 5 inch pin to PAP ball a hole 2 inches from the pin would definitely reduce the flare more than a hole on the PAP

I understand it will reduce the RG of the ball and would tend to roll up a little sooner but I don't know what would have more of an effect and precedent(sp) .. the lower RG or the lower flare..

I'm glad this is on this forum. To resolve anything in this debate, there needs to be back up documentation to ideas presented to be valid. Otherwise, this debate is a form on self-gratification. Does anyone know another word for self-gratification?
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Re: Pin to weight-hole length on symmetrical balls

Post by J_w73 »

I brought it over on this part of the forum cause you didn't want to talk about it anymore.

I really can't win with you, can I ?

I really asked a simple question.. it wasn't bashing the gradient line technique..

All I was asking is.......
The P4 hole is 6 3/4 from the Pin.. what would happen if you kept the hole at 6 3/4 from the pin but moved it toward or beyond the PAP..
What would the differences in reactions be ???

I also am not sure that a P1 will reduce the ball's dynamics the most for every given pin to PAP.. .. If the RG differential is what defines an increase or reduction in the ball's dynamics like you describe on the technique page then I would think a hole close to the pin is going to lower the differential more than any hole 5" from the PIN...

If you are disagreeing with anything I am saying please let me know.

Nobody is looking for self gratification here... just trying to learn
But when somebody says this is the end all be all and that is the end of it and doesn't want to discuss it anymore.. I don't really call that learning...and to me it kind of stifles the ability to learn anything more.
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Re: Pin to weight-hole length on symmetrical balls

Post by Mo Pinel »

J_w73 wrote:I brought it over on this part of the forum cause you didn't want to talk about it anymore.

I really can't win with you, can I ?

I really asked a simple question.. it wasn't bashing the gradient line technique..

All I was asking is.......
The P4 hole is 6 3/4 from the Pin.. what would happen if you kept the hole at 6 3/4 from the pin but moved it toward or beyond the PAP..
What would the differences in reactions be ???

I also am not sure that a P1 will reduce the ball's dynamics the most for every given pin to PAP.. .. If the RG differential is what defines an increase or reduction in the ball's dynamics like you describe on the technique page then I would think a hole close to the pin is going to lower the differential more than any hole 5" from the PIN...

If you are disagreeing with anything I am saying please let me know.

Nobody is looking for self gratification here... just trying to learn
But when somebody says this is the end all be all and that is the end of it and doesn't want to discuss it anymore.. I don't really call that learning...and to me it kind of stifles the ability to learn anything more.
You did exactly what I asked. This is the right forum. Just posting here with my two cents. You did right. This is you guys forum. So please continue.
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Re: Pin to weight-hole length on symmetrical balls

Post by MegaMav »

Mo Pinel wrote: You did exactly what I asked. This is the right forum. Just posting here with my two cents. You did right. This is your guys forum. So please continue.
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Re: Pin to weight-hole length on symmetrical balls

Post by kellytehuna »

"Ah, F**K IT! Let's go Bowling!"

I love that movie!
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Re: Pin to weight-hole length on symmetrical balls

Post by MattCosta7 »

J_w73 wrote: What would be the difference in reaction between hole A and B. Or even one that is farther right ... like I said.. maybe a line through the PAP.. Keeping in mind that all the holes are 6 3/4 from the pin

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2798/412 ... 0357_o.jpg.." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

picture's not showing up. I think I understand what you're saying, but my inclination is that there's a decent role in this played by the placement and proximity of the gripping holes in relation to the weight hole.

The PSA in a symmetrically drilled ball is almost always within a 1/2" or so to the thumb, so we can hypothetically use the center of the thumb for this. By placing a hole close to this one, we enhance the effect of this. The further we go from here, the more diminished this is, to a point, at which time it will act opposed.

There's a lot more involved that I can't simulate due to the lack of CAD knowledge and software.

I believe you are probably correct about distance from the Pin having an effect, but it's a combination of the effects of the gripping holes on the core, as well as that of the balance hole that makes up the total effect. It's hard to simulate this because for every Pin-PAP, and for every grip size (thumb/finger size) these numbers will be different, as well as for every pin to hole, whether it be thumb/finger/balance, as well as for every hole volume, and how much of the denser inner core is removed
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Re: Pin to weight-hole length on symmetrical balls

Post by J_w73 »

Image
how bout that
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Re: Pin to weight-hole length on symmetrical balls

Post by Mo Pinel »

MattCosta7 wrote:
picture's not showing up. I think I understand what you're saying, but my inclination is that there's a decent role in this played by the placement and proximity of the gripping holes in relation to the weight hole.

The PSA in a symmetrically drilled ball is almost always within a 1/2" or so to the thumb, so we can hypothetically use the center of the thumb for this. By placing a hole close to this one, we enhance the effect of this. The further we go from here, the more diminished this is, to a point, at which time it will act opposed.

There's a lot more involved that I can't simulate due to the lack of CAD knowledge and software.

I believe you are probably correct about distance from the Pin having an effect, but it's a combination of the effects of the gripping holes on the core, as well as that of the balance hole that makes up the total effect. It's hard to simulate this because for every Pin-PAP, and for every grip size (thumb/finger size) these numbers will be different, as well as for every pin to hole, whether it be thumb/finger/balance, as well as for every hole volume, and how much of the denser inner core is removed
Good answer! Without CAD back up data, it's ALL speculation.
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