The pro-shops use a PAP FINDER jig to find one's PAP.
This jig works off the first oil ring, which would be fine if mine did not move. Normally, the first ring is about 3/8 of an inch off my thumb-hole, but I have observed the ring move. Sometimes it is a bit further from the thumb-hole, sometimes a bid closer. Today, I was trying to not to rise-up during my release and noted that the first ring cut the edge of the hole. This ring movement causes the jig to locate the PAP at different points as the ring moves, so is my PAP really moving?
What do you thing is going on?
Moving PAP ??
Moderator: Moderators
- Nsane
- Certified Coach
- Posts: 650
- Joined: June 15th, 2010, 5:01 pm
- THS Average: 190
- Positive Axis Point: 5 3/16 - 7/8 up
- Speed: 17
- Rev Rate: 300
- Axis Tilt: 13°
- Axis Rotation: 55°
- Heavy Oil Ball: Brunswick Tenacity, Radical Tremendous
- Medium Oil Ball: Guru mighty,
- Light Oil Ball: Motiv venom cobra
- Preferred Company: Radical
- Location: Germany
Re: Moving PAP ??
the PAP location comes from your release. If your PAP moves on "the same ball" to different places, you release the Ball different.
If this occures on different balls, it can come from the cores.
If this occures on different balls, it can come from the cores.
Ducati what else?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nice people press +
-
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 3432
- Joined: January 31st, 2010, 1:04 am
- Positive Axis Point: 15 15/16 x 3/16
- Speed: 13.5 (Qubica)
- Axis Tilt: 13
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Location: Hawesville KY/Tell City IN
Re: Moving PAP ??
Could be "flare in the air". If you loft the ball out on the lane it may make a revolution or two before it hits the lane. Note that when you stayed down you set the ball down with less loft and the first oil ring was higher. That's because that revolution was made on the lane instead of in the air. For a discussion of this, see the thread linked below. -- JohnP
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=174" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=174" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
-
- Member
- Posts: 64
- Joined: August 23rd, 2011, 6:04 pm
- Speed: Hand to arrows 15.3-15.7
- Rev Rate: 217
- Axis Tilt: 17.5
- Axis Rotation: 62.5
- Preferred Company: Storm
Re: Moving PAP ??
Thanks to both of you for your inputs.
I have to believe that both of you are correct.
I have always believed that changing my hand position caused the PAP to shift, I never bought into the idea that your PAP was locked. Otherwise changing your hand position would have less affect on the ball's roll pattern.
Then, stop frame photos show the ball rotate in the air before it hits the lane. So if the release point is closer to the lane, then the ball has less time to rotate before making contact with the lane and this changes the oil ring position in my thinking.
I will mull this over and be back with a related question, after I get it framed in my mind.
I have to believe that both of you are correct.
I have always believed that changing my hand position caused the PAP to shift, I never bought into the idea that your PAP was locked. Otherwise changing your hand position would have less affect on the ball's roll pattern.
Then, stop frame photos show the ball rotate in the air before it hits the lane. So if the release point is closer to the lane, then the ball has less time to rotate before making contact with the lane and this changes the oil ring position in my thinking.
I will mull this over and be back with a related question, after I get it framed in my mind.
- trackbowler
- Matchplay Champion
- Posts: 522
- Joined: February 4th, 2011, 5:28 pm
- THS Average: 220
- Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2 over 1/2 up
- Speed: 18 off hand
- Rev Rate: 400
- Axis Tilt: 15
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Preferred Company: Radical
- Location: Louisville, KY
Re: Moving PAP ??
So the way I understand this is that if you can bowl both ways that you would use the PAP from your A game to drill the ball... correct?
Kyle
-
- Member
- Posts: 64
- Joined: August 23rd, 2011, 6:04 pm
- Speed: Hand to arrows 15.3-15.7
- Rev Rate: 217
- Axis Tilt: 17.5
- Axis Rotation: 62.5
- Preferred Company: Storm
Re: Moving PAP ??
I just returned from the local alley, were I played with the idea of loft and hand position changing the location of the first oil line.
First lets state that I am not a pro nor am I near to being one, I know that my hand has some what of a mind of its own
First, I played a game were I focused upon keeping the hand position steady, did not worry about the score putting all the balls down the same line. Of course, there were minor track changes. Like I said, I am no pro. However, the track veried only a slight amount.
Next, I reduced my hand position. The first track did in fact move more than a slight amount. After 5 frames, I tried staying more behind the ball and the track moved closer to the thumb-hole, cutting the edge.
Finally, I went back to my basic hand position and lowered my body position, knees did not enjoy that very much. Once again the oil ring moved a fair amount. after 5 frames, I held the low body position but came around the ball more and the track moved away from my thumb-hole and back to near my normal first track.
Like I said, I am not a pro, however, I am now convinced that if all things are maintained except for the height of the release or if the hand position is changed the PAP, as located by the first oil ring, will move.
How much movement? I believe that generally the PAP locations, for me, will stay within a zone that could be covered by a circular piece of paper with a 1 3/16 inch dia. or slightly less.
So what do the pros think of this little experiment?
Would love to hear from the Big Boys.
Does the the PAP drift and how much impact does this have on the drill angles?
My guess, and that is what it is a guess, is that from the center of my PAP zone, for want of a better term, to any point in the zone is about 5 degrees or less.
First lets state that I am not a pro nor am I near to being one, I know that my hand has some what of a mind of its own
First, I played a game were I focused upon keeping the hand position steady, did not worry about the score putting all the balls down the same line. Of course, there were minor track changes. Like I said, I am no pro. However, the track veried only a slight amount.
Next, I reduced my hand position. The first track did in fact move more than a slight amount. After 5 frames, I tried staying more behind the ball and the track moved closer to the thumb-hole, cutting the edge.
Finally, I went back to my basic hand position and lowered my body position, knees did not enjoy that very much. Once again the oil ring moved a fair amount. after 5 frames, I held the low body position but came around the ball more and the track moved away from my thumb-hole and back to near my normal first track.
Like I said, I am not a pro, however, I am now convinced that if all things are maintained except for the height of the release or if the hand position is changed the PAP, as located by the first oil ring, will move.
How much movement? I believe that generally the PAP locations, for me, will stay within a zone that could be covered by a circular piece of paper with a 1 3/16 inch dia. or slightly less.
So what do the pros think of this little experiment?
Would love to hear from the Big Boys.
Does the the PAP drift and how much impact does this have on the drill angles?
My guess, and that is what it is a guess, is that from the center of my PAP zone, for want of a better term, to any point in the zone is about 5 degrees or less.
Re: Moving PAP ??
I'll certainly defer to the experts here, but it sounds to me like your axis tilt is changing. As the amount of tilt increases, the oil rings will move away from the thumb.
I suggest following the directions in the Wiki, and place tape on the PAP. Get some good video, and use the tilt/rotation overlay. When you notice the the PAP appear to move, try moving the tape, and check the tilt again.
I suggest following the directions in the Wiki, and place tape on the PAP. Get some good video, and use the tilt/rotation overlay. When you notice the the PAP appear to move, try moving the tape, and check the tilt again.
-
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 3432
- Joined: January 31st, 2010, 1:04 am
- Positive Axis Point: 15 15/16 x 3/16
- Speed: 13.5 (Qubica)
- Axis Tilt: 13
- Axis Rotation: 45
- Location: Hawesville KY/Tell City IN
Re: Moving PAP ??
rcorbet is right - changing your axis tilt moves the track but does not necessarily change your PAP location. The PAP is directly across the ball from the center of the first oil ring (called the negative axis point, or NAP). An infinite number of concentric circles exist around the NAP, each with the same PAP location but different diameters (or different axis tilts). -- JohnP