Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

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Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by fufu »

We've all heard the saying "most bowlers need more forward pitch". I think it is possible I have too much forward pitch, b/c I feel like I'm going to drop the ball.... Yes, you read that right.

Hear me out. My span is 4 3/8 to both fingers, my thumb pitch is 1/4 fwd/1/8 palm. The only way for me to exit the ball is be super relaxed. I'm going to try 1/8 fwd/1/8 palm and 0 fwd/3/16 palm. If I make the thumb hole tight, I can't clear it. If I make the thumb lose enough to clear it, I can't hang on to it without grabbing it. Kind of a catch 22 wouldn't ya say?

Thoughts?
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Re: Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by MattInTheHat »

I used to think "more forward is better" was true, but I believe it is more accurate to say most bowlers need less reverse pitch but not necessarily forward pitch. I do believe that most bowlers with an average hand size can bowl with at 0 or with some forward thumb pitch, but through my own experience and that of few others I have worked with I think that once you get past a certain amount of forward pitch it becomes a learned skill as opposed to "what you should have", and not everyone will want to put in the time to learn to bowl with more forward pitch.

My span is 4 1/4 x 4 5/16, which according to the "standard" drilling charts calls for 1/8" reverse. Way back before I knew anything I had 1/2" reverse in a stretched span, and have since worked my way up to a relaxed span and 3/8" forward. I also prefer a snug but not tight thumbhole, and have more bevel on it than I should but I wouldn't call it a lot. A few others I've worked with have also gone from having reverse to forward, ranging from 1/16" to 1/4" forward, and that is where they are comfortable.

I agree you can have too much forward pitch but I've never heard anyone say it was because they were dropping the ball, usually it is the opposite. My thinking is if your span and hole sizes are correct and you have forward pitch in your thumb but still feel like you are going to drop the ball, then there is probably something else wrong in your physical (or possibly mental) game that is causing the feeling. I used to have the habit of pulling the ball up in my backswing, which put me out of time and caused me to pull the ball down to the release. This in turn put stress on my wrist which caused it to break and I ended up on top of the ball. If I didn't grip the ball I would drop it, and if I gripped too hard I would lob it or pull it. Since getting my swing worked out (well mostly...) I've been better able to stay behind the ball and can keep my hand more relaxed yet not drop the ball.
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Re: Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by Graaille »

I'm at 4-13/16 by 4-7/8, and I've been looking at actually trying more forward pitch/under palm pitch. Right now my spare ball is drilled zero'ed out, and a couple of my strike balls are at 1/4 forward and 1/4 under. I actually have the ball fall off my hand more on the spare ball. Notice I said "more" -- not "better". I still have some gripping issues as evidenced by the skin loss on the top left side of my thumb knuckle, so I'm thinking that going more forward/under will potentially help me relax the grip better.
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Re: Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by Mo Pinel »

fufu wrote:We've all heard the saying "most bowlers need more forward pitch". I think it is possible I have too much forward pitch, b/c I feel like I'm going to drop the ball.... Yes, you read that right.

Hear me out. My span is 4 3/8 to both fingers, my thumb pitch is 1/4 fwd/1/8 palm. The only way for me to exit the ball is be super relaxed. I'm going to try 1/8 fwd/1/8 palm and 0 fwd/3/16 palm. If I make the thumb hole tight, I can't clear it. If I make the thumb lose enough to clear it, I can't hang on to it without grabbing it. Kind of a catch 22 wouldn't ya say?

Thoughts?
It's the span/pitch relationship that really matters. Most bowlers have a range of forward/reverse thumb pitches that will work for them by adjusting the span appropriately.

Fitting is an art. The object is to reduce the amount of grip pressure that the bowler needs to release the ball cleanly and consistently.
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Re: Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by RedRiverCoach »

this may help (Thanks again to Mo)
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Re: Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by fufu »

According to that chart, i need 1/4 rev for my span of 4 3/8......
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Re: Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by Mo Pinel »

fufu wrote:According to that chart, i need 1/4 rev for my span of 4 3/8......
Only if you have a 75* thumb web. Less than 2% of bowlers have that tight a thumb by my experience. If you have a 135* thumb web, you would need 0 in the thumb. These are guidelines to be adjusted for length of thumb and skin texture. Shortening your span 1/16" might result in 1/4 forward. There are many adjustments that can be made to change grip pressure.
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Re: Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by Pinbuster »

In the past a stretched span was popular and it generally required a bowler to have more reverse in the ball or pull the thumb/fingers slightly out of the ball.

I have been a believer in the relaxed finger tip span for over 30 years. Most pro’s use it. It never will damage your hand and gives the bowler more release options.

As the relaxed finger tip fit has become more popular then you can reduce the amount of reverse needed to clear the thumb properly.

The best way I know of to find this is to use an adjustable measuring ball.

Find acceptable hole sizes, adjust the span, and then play with the thumb pitches. The bowler being measured should then throw the measuring ball to pro in the air. This allows the pro and the bowler to see how those pitches work.

Based on what they see/feel then adjustments to pitches can be made. This eliminates a lot of guess work.

We had 3 measuring balls in various weights, 12, 14, 15 so that regardless of a bowlers strength we could see how the ball came off their hand and could judge to a degree if the ball weight was correct.
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Re: Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by JohnP »

There are many factors that go into a good fit. Thumb flexibility and hinge angle are two very important factors. But one other that hasn't been mentioned yet is using the correct amount of forward/reverse pitch in the fingers based on your finger joint flexibility. If, for example, your finger joints are stiff and you should be using 1/2 reverse in the fingers, but they are drilled at 0 and you're using lift-style grips you've essentially changed the feel of the fit by about 1/4" increased span. That both damages your finger joints and greatly affects the thumb pitch required for a clean release. In short, find a qualified fitter/driller and let him do his job. -- JohnP
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Re: Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by cgeorg »

Hmm. My span is 4 3/8 and 4 1/4 (ring and middle), using Ron Clifton's method, paraphrased:
You can tell if your span is correct by placing your thumb in the ball and laying your fingers across the holes. The leading edge (side closest to the thumb) of the finger hole should be no longer than half way between the first and second knuckle of the middle and ring finger without stretching your hand, it should be relaxed. It can be a little shorter than that, but not shorter than one quarter from the second knuckle.
I'm right at halfway between the 2 joints.

I'm not sure exactly how that thumb web picture above is supposed to be measured, but trying to get my thumb as far away from my index finger as possible gives me a 90 degree angle.

I use 1/4" forward in my thumb, and 0 in my fingers, w/oval grips.
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Re: Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by fufu »

I'll get pics for all to see. I'll do thumb angle, span, etc.

Overall specs:

Span 4 3/8 both fingers
1/4 rev middle
3/8 rev ring
--Vise lady oval inserts, vacu grips
3/8-3/8 for laterals, clt 7/16
you know my thumb specs.
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Re: Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by fufu »

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Re: Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by fufu »

Tried a couple of different pitches tonight. Started with my 2nd Dimension, 3/16 fwd, 3/16 palm. For the most part, not bad. Did have some trouble in the 3rd game where it felt too big or too small.

I also tried 1/8 fwd, 1/8 palm in my Total Bedlam(which is a st-rong ball fwiw). It felt better, b/c I could keep the thumb snug and still clear the ball with ease. Going to try 0 and 3/16 palm next.
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Re: Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by Mo Pinel »

fufu wrote:Tried a couple of different pitches tonight. Started with my 2nd Dimension, 3/16 fwd, 3/16 palm. For the most part, not bad. Did have some trouble in the 3rd game where it felt too big or too small.

I also tried 1/8 fwd, 1/8 palm in my Total Bedlam(which is a st-rong ball fwiw). It felt better, b/c I could keep the thumb snug and still clear the ball with ease. Going to try 0 and 3/16 palm next.
Why do you change your lateral pitch and not just change your For/Rev?
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Re: Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by fufu »

Mo Pinel wrote: Why do you change your lateral pitch and not just change your For/Rev?
Mostly b/c the Dimension is the best feeling ball I have, so I used the laterals on that as a baseline.
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Re: Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by kellytehuna »

fufu wrote: Mostly b/c the Dimension is the best feeling ball I have, so I used the laterals on that as a baseline.
I believe he's asking why you're changing BOTH the lateral pitch and forward/reverse pitch each time. Eg. you 3/16 forward, 3/16 palm after trying 1/8 forward, 1/8 palm. Why not just try 3/16 forward, 1/8 palm after 1/8 forward, 1/8 palm? Less moving parts = higher chance of hitting target.
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Re: Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by fufu »

I understand, I don't really have a good answer. I'm just fishing for the right feel I guess.
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Re: Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by Mo Pinel »

fufu wrote:I understand, I don't really have a good answer. I'm just fishing for the right feel I guess.
Using a fitting tube is my suggested method of finding the natural gripping angle of your thumb. This will give you the lateral pitch for your thumb. MoRich makes a set of fitting tubes. Using the IBPSIA "Thumb Angle Pitch Chart" should give you the for/rev pitch for your thumb, which is in post #5 of this thread. Allow for an adjustment in pitch for the length of your thumb, if necessary.
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Re: Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by fufu »

Thanks again Mo!

I used to use -0- laterals, but started rubbing alittle on my thumb, so I pitched 1/8 palm. This stopped the rub.

Did you get to view the pics? Since I've never been thru the class, I don't know if I should be pulling the thumb back. Either way, it looks like I'm either 75 or 90.
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Re: Effects of too much forward pitch in the thumb?

Post by Mo Pinel »

fufu wrote:Thanks again Mo!

I used to use -0- laterals, but started rubbing alittle on my thumb, so I pitched 1/8 palm. This stopped the rub.

Did you get to view the pics? Since I've never been thru the class, I don't know if I should be pulling the thumb back. Either way, it looks like I'm either 75 or 90.
The only pics that I didn't see are the facebook pics that require me to log in. Don't deal with facebook. Post the pics where I can see them and i'd love to look.
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