Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

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Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by MoRichBowler300 »

A guy came in the other day, had a small crack on the inside of a small balance hole. I checked the side weight and realized I could simply drill the crack out of the balance hole using a bigger bit without compromising static weight. Additionally, the balance hole wasn't even an inch deep, so I knew that drilling the crack out wouldn't compromise the RG because I wouldn't be touching the core. So, I fix the guy's ball and he comes back a week later complaining that his ball no longer hooks/doesn't hook as much as it used to. As a side note, the guy is using a brunswick monster slasher. I don't know how to deal with idiots like this. His line was, "I don't know what you did to the ball, but it doesn't hook as much as it used to." Some people just don't understand what makes a ball spin faster/slower and hook more/less. So, I simply took the ball and put and 800 grit finish on it and had all I could do to tell him to shut the hell up. People are really behind in with bowling ball properties.
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Re: Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by coolerman »

Some people are looking for a reason to blame someone for their problems.You gave
him that reason he was looking for.
Not that you are to fault.But in his mind,you were the last one to touch the ball.So
this makes it your fault.
SomNerve

"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality."
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Re: Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by kellytehuna »

The guy who does a little ball work here once told me that the best way to drill the fingers was the line the bit up with the mid line, then crank the lateral pitch knob until you line up the edge of the bit with the cut line. Lather, rinse, repeat for the other finger and you're done. This is the guy that has been drilling equipment here for more than 20 years!

When he told me that, my jaw dropped, but I held my tongue and let him finish. He didn't care about pitches in the fingers. He didn't care about span differences and he most certainly didn't care about how the ball fit.

People only know what they are told. Until they are convinced otherwise, the information they have been given is correct. It is our job, assuming we are the educated, to help re-educate those that will listen. This task is CLEARLY not as simple as it might sound. To say man is resistant to change is a MASSIVE understatement!
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Re: Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by KWagner1977 »

I think you need to start to tone done your attitude on here about people. Does it do any good to come on a web site and say nasty things about the people that you do business with.

Get used to it my friend, it is what being in business is all about. The good, the bad and the ugly. You smile and move on to the next one.

Bowling is a very uninformed community of participants, and most of them are not as smart as you, do not want to be as smart as you, or want to know anything about the game. They want to throw the ball and strike and have fun. Understand who your dealing with and it will go a long way with dealing with your customer base.

Chest bumping your own self on line doesn't make you look any better than the guy who was in your shop, in fact I think it makes you look worse because as a pro shop PROFESSIONAL you know better than to act like this.

People skills, people skills and more people skills. Invaluable when dealing with people.

I've learned when you least expect it, the people you say things about are right there watching your every move, and when you don't think they are listening they sure are. You never know where this customer of yours might be lurking, he might be here right now. Trouble is always lurking.

Just think, you post the name of your pro shop on your posts. If I was a customer that was not the best bowler, I might be afraid to come to your shop because you make "fun" of the bowlers there. There potentially could be lost sales from this web site alone, because people might be afraid to come to your shop.
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Re: Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by StrikeTheory »

kellytehuna wrote:The guy who does a little ball work here once told me that the best way to drill the fingers was the line the bit up with the mid line, then crank the lateral pitch knob until you line up the edge of the bit with the cut line. Lather, rinse, repeat for the other finger and you're done. This is the guy that has been drilling equipment here for more than 20 years!

When he told me that, my jaw dropped, but I held my tongue and let him finish. He didn't care about pitches in the fingers. He didn't care about span differences and he most certainly didn't care about how the ball fit.

People only know what they are told. Until they are convinced otherwise, the information they have been given is correct. It is our job, assuming we are the educated, to help re-educate those that will listen. This task is CLEARLY not as simple as it might sound. To say man is resistant to change is a MASSIVE understatement!
Did the finger holes intersect just underneath the bridge?
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Re: Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by kellytehuna »

Nope. You tend to get over 1/2" lateral pitch in the direction you crank the knob. I watched him do it on a ball I happened to have in the jig (already drilled) and it was getting close to 3/4". SCARY!
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Re: Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by KWagner1977 »

Ouch! 20 years of those kind of balls being drilled. Must be a small town your in. I grew up in a small town with 1 12 lane center. Not too many options!
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Re: Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by MoRichBowler300 »

KWagner1977 wrote: Just think, you post the name of your pro shop on your posts. If I was a customer that was not the best bowler, I might be afraid to come to your shop because you make "fun" of the bowlers there. There potentially could be lost sales from this web site alone, because people might be afraid to come to your shop.
I live in Maine, dude. Half the people here don't know how to fire up a computer let alone the internet. It's like you said, we don't have a lot of dedicated bowlers; they just do it for recreation. There are no Mainers on this website because nobody up here knows about it.
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Re: Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by MegaMav »

MoRichBowler300 wrote:I live in Maine, dude. Half the people here don't know how to fire up a computer let alone the internet. It's like you said, we don't have a lot of dedicated bowlers; they just do it for recreation. There are no Mainers on this website because nobody up here knows about it.
You assume too much, there is a another WELL KNOWN pro shop operator and state champion in Maine that is a well respected member here.

So respected, he has a sub domain site here for the tournament he runs.

Im not going to tell you how to run your business, but the way you hammer your customers on here, makes you look pretentious at the very least.

-Eric
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Re: Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by MoRichBowler300 »

MegaMav wrote: You assume too much, there is a another WELL KNOWN pro shop operator and state champion in Maine that is a well respected member here.

So respected, he has a sub domain site here for the tournament he runs.

Im not going to tell you how to run your business, but the way you hammer your customers on here, makes you look pretentious at the very least.

-Eric
Ya James and I are good friends and he knows what he is doing for sure. He is a great bowler and a great ball driller. We bowled in Youth USBC together and we share these pro shop stories all the time. Look, the bottom line is, I do the ball work, take the customer's money and move on to the next person. I try to logically explain to customers why things are the way they are and they sometimes look at me like I don't know how bowling balls work. This thread started out of annoyance towards the ignorance of bowlers even after I try to educate them about the physics of bowling. I can't tell them off because I want their business, so I sometimes use this website as an outlet to get things off my mind that I couldn't otherwise tell directly to the customer in question. Why is it that I will try to educate bowlers about their bowling issues and they sometimes wont trust me? Perhaps it's my age? I am probably the youngest ball driller in the state, so people may mistake that for inexperience, but I've been drilling for 8 years. So, I dunno... don't read too much into my venting threads. And as far as James is concerned, all of my pro shop stories that I've shared on this website I've shared with James first, and we have a good laugh over it. It's nothing personal, it's just a commentary on how far behind our state of Maine is with the rest of the bowling world. He's just not as vocal as I am. :)
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Re: Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by Mo Pinel »

kellytehuna wrote:The guy who does a little ball work here once told me that the best way to drill the fingers was the line the bit up with the mid line, then crank the lateral pitch knob until you line up the edge of the bit with the cut line. Lather, rinse, repeat for the other finger and you're done. This is the guy that has been drilling equipment here for more than 20 years!

When he told me that, my jaw dropped, but I held my tongue and let him finish. He didn't care about pitches in the fingers. He didn't care about span differences and he most certainly didn't care about how the ball fit.

People only know what they are told. Until they are convinced otherwise, the information they have been given is correct. It is our job, assuming we are the educated, to help re-educate those that will listen. This task is CLEARLY not as simple as it might sound. To say man is resistant to change is a MASSIVE understatement!
Kelly,

Time for another history lesson. When ball drilling was taught in the beginning, in the '60s. That was the way it was taught. The bit was lined up at 0 lateral pitch on the centerline and then the table was cranked until the bit lined up with the bridge line. Then the finger hole was drilled. The procedure was repeated on the other finger hole by cranking the press in the other direction. This procedure led to the term "parallel zero". That means parallel to 0 pitch on the centerline. A vast majority of the balls that I see that were drilled by other ball drillers are about 3/8" left on one finger and 3/8" right on the other finger. Almost the same thing as "parallel zero", but slightly at each other since "parallel zero" with a 1/4" bridge with inserts is 5/8" L by 5/8" R. This guy learned from somebody who was trained in the '60s, or he was trained in the '60s, himself.

KWagner1977 is right. A little more respect for history would not hurt, but no big deal. Keep in mind Hazard, KY is not exactly a hub-ub for modern technology. I know you didn't mean to be offensive. Sounds like that's what I did to Carolina Kingpin.
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Re: Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by kellytehuna »

I certainly don't mean any disrespect to what was done in the past, for "we stand on the shoulders of giants." However, this guy is really quite arrogant about anything bowling related. He feels he is the be all and end all of bowling information in Hazard, KY. He quite often uses a bridge MUCH wider than 1/4", just by looking at the last few balls I've seen him do. He is the man that drilled the ball that crunched my wife's fingers! We both know the result from that. This is the same man that cuts all our wicks and told me once that I need to "stand up" at the line as I release the ball because "it's easier to hit a target with a rifle, than a pistol." Just saying.

I would be a fool to ignore the lessons handed down by those before us, but we, as the professionals, need to keep up with current thinking. I strive to stay current in every field of interest to me, both professionally and casually.

Just out of interest, I came up with JUST under 5/8" left and right? 39/64", to be precise. Did I do the calculation correctly Mo? (bridge width + drill bit size) / 2? In this case, (1/4"+31/32")/2 = (39/32") / 2 = 39/64".
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Re: Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by MoRichBowler300 »

kellytehuna wrote:I would be a fool to ignore the lessons handed down by those before us, but we, as the professionals, need to keep up with current thinking. I strive to stay current in every field of interest to me, both professionally and casually.
So true. People will always comment that my fittings "look a little short." My only reply is, "It IS short if you compare it to the 40 year old drilling technique that is outdated and ruining not only people's hands but their release as well." I think the point is for the span to be somewhat short so you can manipulate the pitches properly so the bowler comes out of the ball cleaner. I love watching a person with this new fit roll the ball with ease because the span is shorter, giving me room to give them forward thumb pitch (as needed) and what some would think to be excessive forward finger pitch. I never used to give such short spans so much forward finger pitch, but now, I totally understand why. These "smaller hands" can roll the ball with less force by just letting the forward finger pitch roll the ball for them. Genius! Keep it up, MO!
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Re: Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by Mo Pinel »

kellytehuna wrote:I certainly don't mean any disrespect to what was done in the past, for "we stand on the shoulders of giants." However, this guy is really quite arrogant about anything bowling related. He feels he is the be all and end all of bowling information in Hazard, KY. He quite often uses a bridge MUCH wider than 1/4", just by looking at the last few balls I've seen him do. He is the man that drilled the ball that crunched my wife's fingers! We both know the result from that. This is the same man that cuts all our wicks and told me once that I need to "stand up" at the line as I release the ball because "it's easier to hit a target with a rifle, than a pistol." Just saying.

I would be a fool to ignore the lessons handed down by those before us, but we, as the professionals, need to keep up with current thinking. I strive to stay current in every field of interest to me, both professionally and casually.

Just out of interest, I came up with JUST under 5/8" left and right? 39/64", to be precise. Did I do the calculation correctly Mo? (bridge width + drill bit size) / 2? In this case, (1/4"+31/32")/2 = (39/32") / 2 = 39/64".
I approximated the radius of the insert at 1/2" (instead of 31/64"). I hope that's acceptable in Hazard, KY.
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Re: Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by kellytehuna »

Certainly wasn't questioning you on that. I just wanted to make sure my math was right and that I was using the right point of origin. I remember with angle calculations a few months ago, I was close to the correct answer but my point of origin was incorrect, so the calculation was incorrect as well :D Even 1/2" is probably a little too accurate in Hazard, KY :P
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Re: Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by Maine Man »

The pro shop business can be hard at times, in the fact that many people look at you as the be-all-end-all for their bowling needs. You have to really take a step back and try and see where they are coming from, which could be limited knowledge or even a history of bad information. Honestly, I have a much easier time drilling equipment for bowlers who know next to nothing about ball drilling and ball reactions than I do about those who "think" they know everything, yet do not have a firm grasp of the basics. But, as a customer service based industry, we have to remind ourselves that if we belittle bowlers, or try and sound too technical with them that they can not register with us on any level, then they will just go somewhere else next time, and that's just bad business.

I don't agree necessarily with Nick that most bowlers in Maine have no clue about ball reactions or drilling, as I have many conversations with people about those topics, and some really do make an honest effort to become more educated about the process. I have had conversations with Nick about frustrating customers, but talking to one another about it in private and expressing those thoughts to the public (i.e. potential customers) is a totally different thing altogether. I love working in the pro shop, even with all the variables you have to deal with, as it is fulfilling to see a bowler get their first honor score with stuff you drilled, or to drill for a high end bowler who can go out and dominate with something you drilled. Personally, I also like the satisfaction of drilling my own equipment and seeing the different reactions on the lane created by my hands on the drilling machine. Nick does a good job, and is a good guy on and off the lanes, so don't bust on him too bad, sometimes frustration gets the better of us from time to time. ;)
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Re: Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by MoRichBowler300 »

Ok well here is an update on this bowler. I sanded his ball down to 800 grit, which is factory finish. He claims that it worked for about a week and now it's back to "not hooking." May I remind everyone he is using a Brunswick Monster Smasher, a ball from 2002 which has a 142 rating on the perfect scale which is some where equal to any other company's mid to lower performance bowling balls. So now he is convinced that I ruined this ball by drilling a crack out of his balance hole. Does anybody have any advice as to how to deal with customers like this? My suggestion was to plug the entire thing, refit him using the wiki method, FOR FREE and re-drill the ball much stronger. His current drilling is something like 80 x 4 1/2 x 50. As if the ball isn't weak enough as it is, now compound it with this mild drilling and this guy never had a chance on even medium oil. I figure if I offer to throw a bunch of free stuff at him, he'll shut up. Also, I just got a whole batch of MoRich Manias in and I think this could be a bridge towards him purchasing one, which he so desperately needs. He is trying to make lemonade out of a lemon of a ball. He is speed dominant with little hand, so I think the plug and re-drill may be a futile effort. However, like I said, I can only hope that this is the bridge towards a new ball. *sigh* this is what can make the job so frustrating sometimes.
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Re: Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by JustinWi »

I see a "dumb" or "ill-informed" or otherwise informationally challenged bowler as an opportunity to proliferate the truth and advance the most exciting period of factual knowledge expansion ever seen in the bowling industry. Not a "here we go again you friggin idiot seriously ugh i hate my job and you".

Some of these recent posts about these "dumb bowlers" shows not your ability and desire to help, but your ability to incessantly complain.

Arm yourself with education and patience, and you will see the rewards. Continue this current attitude, that even if you deny it your bowlers will subconsciously pick up on because of infliction and body language, and you will continue to remain where you are if not decline.

Chin up m8, its not that bad.
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Re: Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by elgavachon »

MoRichBowler300 wrote:Ok well here is an update on this bowler. I sanded his ball down to 800 grit, which is factory finish. He claims that it worked for about a week and now it's back to "not hooking." May I remind everyone he is using a Brunswick Monster Smasher, a ball from 2002 which has a 142 rating on the perfect scale which is some where equal to any other company's mid to lower performance bowling balls. So now he is convinced that I ruined this ball by drilling a crack out of his balance hole. Does anybody have any advice as to how to deal with customers like this? My suggestion was to plug the entire thing, refit him using the wiki method, FOR FREE and re-drill the ball much stronger. His current drilling is something like 80 x 4 1/2 x 50. As if the ball isn't weak enough as it is, now compound it with this mild drilling and this guy never had a chance on even medium oil. I figure if I offer to throw a bunch of free stuff at him, he'll shut up. Also, I just got a whole batch of MoRich Manias in and I think this could be a bridge towards him purchasing one, which he so desperately needs. He is trying to make lemonade out of a lemon of a ball. He is speed dominant with little hand, so I think the plug and re-drill may be a futile effort. However, like I said, I can only hope that this is the bridge towards a new ball. *sigh* this is what can make the job so frustrating sometimes.
Sounds like you are going above and beyond with this bowler. I like what Justin is saying too. Sounds to me like this bowler is trying to doubt your knowledge and see if by doing that he can see you waiver and confirm himself. If you plug it for free, He will probably come back and say now you really ruined it. My advice would be to stay confident. You are obviously a great driller and willing to help to an extreme. Don't let that willingness be misinterpreted as trial and error (or a lack of knowledge on your part). If you help this customer, be sure he understands how confident you are in what you are doing and why. He is probably not a big spender.
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Re: Perhaps the most "ill informed" (dumb) bowler I know...

Post by MoRichBowler300 »

JustinWi wrote:I see a "dumb" or "ill-informed" or otherwise informationally challenged bowler as an opportunity to proliferate the truth and advance the most exciting period of factual knowledge expansion ever seen in the bowling industry. Not a "here we go again you friggin idiot seriously ugh i hate my job and you".

Some of these recent posts about these "dumb bowlers" shows not your ability and desire to help, but your ability to incessantly complain.

Arm yourself with education and patience, and you will see the rewards. Continue this current attitude, that even if you deny it your bowlers will subconsciously pick up on because of infliction and body language, and you will continue to remain where you are if not decline.

Chin up m8, its not that bad.
I've already explained that the problem in the house where I drill is that older customers see my age and think 'inexperience' rather than seeing the new ideas I have to bring to the table. I am 25 years old, and some of the older customers, sometimes not even old at all, are stuck in their old ways and, even after trying to educate them about how things are now, I get it thrown back in my face like I have no idea what I'm talking about. I try to educate about cores, he wants nothing to do with it. I try to educate about radius of gyration and how it can be manipulated by DEEP balance holes not shallow ones, and he wants nothing to do with it. I try to educate on how his ball was manufactured 9 years ago and a lot has changed in bowling ball technology, I get it thrown back in my face. I try to educate on how in that 9 years, a lot of oil has built up in this ball, limiting the ball's reaction capabilities, he wants nothing to do with it. Bottom line, did I really screw this guy's ball up by taking 1/4 oz more out of his one-inch-deep balance hole? Maybe...Am I the only one that sees the insanity in this? I always take these opportunities to educate bowlers, weather they listen or not is another story. It's not like I either educate OR complain. One is the result of the other not working. I try to educate, get it thrown back in my face and then complain in my own way. Partially because I feel like I'm the only one in the house trying to move the sport forward and partially because I feel like people just wont listen to what I have to say when I am attempting to educate them. An education opportunity which they clearly don't want and, in their own mind, don't need. So, I'm stuck either way. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
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