finger pitches forward and reverse

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J_w73
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Posts: 915
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
THS Average: 210
Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17 mph
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 45+
Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
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finger pitches forward and reverse

Post by J_w73 »

I'm refitting my hand and trying a new span and pitches. Is it ok for the middle finger to have more reverse than the ring finger? I have a less flexible middle finger joint and need to have more reverse. How will this impact my ball roll?

Going from 4 3/4 span (M & R) , Middle 0 L, Ring 3/4 R. 0 F/R in both fingers, Thumb 3/8 reverse and 3/8 right . This span is probably too short and too relaxed. Going to 5 " span on M and R. Middle 5/16 L - 1/2 reverse, Ring 7 / 16 R - 3/8 reverse. Thumb 1/2 or 5/8 reverse and 0 or 1/8 right (not sure which yet) 5" is the correct span with a slightly taught hand..

Also, how should going from 0 and 3/4 right lateral in my fingers to 5/16L 7/16 R change my tilt? (moving fingers left)
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
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EricHartwell
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Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
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Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
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Re: finger pitches forward and reverse

Post by EricHartwell »

Disclaimer, I am not a fitter.

You didn't mention Why you are changing your grip other than the flexibility of your middle finger.

I have gone through several grip changes over the years. Most were small adjustments. I did make one large adjustment back before the turn of the century, going from a stretched long span to a much shorter more relaxed one.
Your proposed new grip is not a small adjustment.

Going off memory from what I have read about performance fitting, I suspect that you will have increased Tilt.

Looks like you have a rather large arsenal. I suggest just having one ball changed to your proposed new grip and try it out paying close attention to your ball roll as well as comfort level. I would bowl several games, at least 6, to evaluate the comfort level and prove to myself that the new grip isn't going to introduce any pain.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
J_w73
Member
Member
Posts: 915
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
THS Average: 210
Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17 mph
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 45+
Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
Location: Northern California

Re: finger pitches forward and reverse

Post by J_w73 »

I'm having trouble getting a consistent thumb release and my ball roll and hit is just garbage. My speed isn't super fast, but I just have a very small pocket and don't get the carry that I should. Been trying to bowl with more forward in my thumb and more lateral right, but I think it is just causes more problems than it is worth. I had 3/16 reverse and 3/4 right in my thumb, and now 3/8 reverse and 3/8 right and my tilt is just too much. I'm looking for less tilt so I'm hoping the less thumb lateral will help this. Maybe I should leave my fingers at 0 and 3/4 right. My tight thumb hinge and correct span, tacky skin, and longer thumb calls for 1/2 to 5 / 8 reverse. I always thought that was too much.. but maybe that s just what I need. Tired of wasting shots with my thumb hanging and not exiting correctly..
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
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MegaMav
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Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 375
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Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
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Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: finger pitches forward and reverse

Post by MegaMav »

J_w73 wrote: December 14th, 2020, 7:36 am I'm having trouble getting a consistent thumb release and my ball roll and hit is just garbage. My speed isn't super fast, but I just have a very small pocket and don't get the carry that I should. Been trying to bowl with more forward in my thumb and more lateral right, but I think it is just causes more problems than it is worth. I had 3/16 reverse and 3/4 right in my thumb, and now 3/8 reverse and 3/8 right and my tilt is just too much. I'm looking for less tilt so I'm hoping the less thumb lateral will help this. Maybe I should leave my fingers at 0 and 3/4 right. My tight thumb hinge and correct span, tacky skin, and longer thumb calls for 1/2 to 5 / 8 reverse. I always thought that was too much.. but maybe that s just what I need. Tired of wasting shots with my thumb hanging and not exiting correctly..
I'd like to see the technique of you throwing the ball.
Seems release issues are a repeating theme, unless I'm mistaking you with another user.
17* of tilt is perfectly fine with most bowling surfaces being worn.
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EricHartwell
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Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous, EVO solid, Hammer Obsession
Medium Oil Ball: EVO pearl, True Motion, Columbia Command, DV8 Intimidator
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer
Location: Michigan

Re: finger pitches forward and reverse

Post by EricHartwell »

MegaMav wrote: December 14th, 2020, 2:18 pm I'd like to see the technique of you throwing the ball.
Mega...
Would slow motion video focused on the hand at release be a good way to look at this?
I know in the coaches section they want actual speed video to be able to evaluate timing and tempo, but I'm thinking you want to see how the ball is being released from the hand.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
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MegaMav
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Posts: 4694
Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
THS Average: 225
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Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 14
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: finger pitches forward and reverse

Post by MegaMav »

EricHartwell wrote: December 14th, 2020, 11:13 pm Mega...
Would slow motion video focused on the hand at release be a good way to look at this?
I know in the coaches section they want actual speed video to be able to evaluate timing and tempo, but I'm thinking you want to see how the ball is being released from the hand.
As long as I can see the hand, I can advise.
J_w73
Member
Member
Posts: 915
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
THS Average: 210
Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17 mph
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 45+
Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
Location: Northern California

Re: finger pitches forward and reverse

Post by J_w73 »

See if you can get to these links.. I know I rotate the ball in my backswing. Coach Jasnau has seen it live a couple of times and doesn't see it as something to correct. He says it is due to my tendons / limited joint rotation in my shoulder . FYI.. I have now gone to a 5 step approach to help with my timing. And my speed is probably down a mile per hour or two from 18 - 19 to 16 -17

This first video is using the 3/16 and 3/4 right in the thumb.



I'm not completely sure what grip/fit the video with Jasnau is using. I think it is when I was still trying to decide what to do and had a little bit of everything.

Last edited by J_w73 on December 17th, 2020, 4:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
J_w73
Member
Member
Posts: 915
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
THS Average: 210
Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17 mph
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 45+
Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
Location: Northern California

Re: finger pitches forward and reverse

Post by J_w73 »

MegaMav wrote: December 14th, 2020, 2:18 pm I'd like to see the technique of you throwing the ball.
Seems release issues are a repeating theme, unless I'm mistaking you with another user.
17* of tilt is perfectly fine with most bowling surfaces being worn.
Yep, same guy. Same release issues...

Just want to go with what the charts say I should do.. I'd rather have to snug the thumb up a bunch and know the ball is still going to come off. Right now I'm using a thumb that is not as snug as it should be just so I know I can get out.

Only thing I'm not sure about is going with the standard wiki fit is the CLT pitch adjustments. If I lay my hand on the ball my finger angle is between B 16deg and C 24deg. When I release the ball, my hand shifts and moves down the T-Line. I'm not sure if this is because of my flexible thumb joint (left and right, not front to back) or me turning the ball..... I think this shifting is also why 3/4 right in the thumb worked for me, somewhat. It really is all a mess and I just want something that works and I can repeat shots with. I can average 210 to 220 depending on the shot and I probably have 6 shots a night where my release is just horrible because the ball stayed on my hand too much or came off too early.... usually hanging up though..
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
User avatar
MegaMav
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4694
Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
THS Average: 225
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 5.5 Over & 1 Up
Speed: 16.0 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 14
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - Informer
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick - Fearless
Light Oil Ball: Radical - Bonus Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: finger pitches forward and reverse

Post by MegaMav »

Is there pressure on your thumb in the thumb hole at any point?
It is possible your pitches are correct for your anatomy, but the shaping is not.
Personally I have extra flesh on the top left front of my thumb and causes pressure on the back right knuckle, could be fooled (I was!) into thinking more pitch is needed but its more shape needed with a steep (not deep) bevel on that top left front.

Observation: Your hand is on the wrong side of the ball on the upswing. I cant see what else is going on with the 1st video since most of your body is cut off. Swing looks steep at the bottom, might need to speed up your last 2 steps and get the ball going earlier to increase your flat spot. That will probably help.
J_w73
Member
Member
Posts: 915
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
THS Average: 210
Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17 mph
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 45+
Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
Location: Northern California

Re: finger pitches forward and reverse

Post by J_w73 »

MegaMav wrote: December 18th, 2020, 3:15 pm Is there pressure on your thumb in the thumb hole at any point?
It is possible your pitches are correct for your anatomy, but the shaping is not.
Personally I have extra flesh on the top left front of my thumb and causes pressure on the back right knuckle, could be fooled (I was!) into thinking more pitch is needed but its more shape needed with a steep (not deep) bevel on that top left front.

Observation: Your hand is on the wrong side of the ball on the upswing. I cant see what else is going on with the 1st video since most of your body is cut off. Swing looks steep at the bottom, might need to speed up your last 2 steps and get the ball going earlier to increase your flat spot. That will probably help.
I will look at the shaping, but I don't have any pressure, or rubbing at all. My thumb is in pretty good shape. I think my span may just be short, and my hand shifts enough to put my thumb in a position where is doesn't clear and hangs.. And going to the proper span is going to require some pitch changes..

I was really just wondering how the finger pitches will alter my roll, tilt, and track. ie... 3/8 left 3/8 right vs 0 and 3/4 right... and then also having more reverse in the middle versus the ring, since usually the ring has more reverse.

I'd agree my swing is steep and creating a flat spot is an issue for me. That is probably why I lose the ball sometimes, and lose it more when I try to go faster. I want to take some new video with my 5 step approach, but everything is closed here in California so it is tough for me to get on the lanes.

My hand being on the wrong side of the ball in my upswing is what I was talking about when I rotate the ball. It is because of my tighter tendons/joints and limited mobility/rotation in my shoulder joint... I tried to fix it. Jasnau didn't think it was a problem or something that could be fixed. When I swing I keep the inside of my elbow pointing toward my target.. and my hand will naturally turn like that as my arm goes back.. for my to keep my hand behind the ball, I would have to point the inside of my elbow at the right wall. I don't know how most people do it, but for me to set up in that position, it is rather awkward and doesn't feel too good.
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
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