Does the type of ball/core matter when measuring PAP?

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BenLeong
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Does the type of ball/core matter when measuring PAP?

Post by BenLeong »

There’s a debate going on in my pro shop—some say it doesn’t matter, and others say it does. The ones who say it does matter point to stronger or weaker cores giving more polarizing results, and that one should use a medium strength, benchmark core ball when measuring.

I gotta think it’s been discussed here before, but I couldn’t find it in the search.
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Re: Does the type of ball/core matter when measuring PAP?

Post by EricHartwell »

PAP location will change based on the strength of the core/layout choice.
Low flare set-ups will produce PAP locations that are further away from the grip center.
High flare set-ups will bring the PAP closer to the grip center.
Strong core/layouts flare in the air. The initial oil ring is where the layout starts working on the lane and this is where the measurement needs to begin to predict how the ball reacts on the lane.

So the question , Why does it matter?
With a high flare PAP measurement, Low flare/short pin set-ups on Asyms will end up with longer Pin to PAP measurements and more flare than expected and generally a stronger reaction. Or with Symmetrical long pin low flare the flare could be reduced to next to nothing and be weaker than expected.

With a low flare PAP High flare/long pin set-ups on Asym will end up with Shorter pin to PAP and less help achieving forward roll.

Many people choose to use an average or a PAP location from the medium strength set-ups as you mentioned.
My PAP on a no flare spare ball is 5 1/8" x 1/8". My highest flare set-up the PAP is 4 1/4" x 3/4". I use 4 3/4"" x 1/2" for most of my layouts.
I do have exceptions. For example I am going to be setting up a low flare Asym here in the near future and I will use my spare ball PAP when laying it out.
Eric Hartwell

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Re: Does the type of ball/core matter when measuring PAP?

Post by MegaMav »

Here is a question to ask: Does the average PAP of a bowler across the cores matter?
If we need to get within 1/8" on PAP to PASS/FAIL on ball motion, we should be putting it in orbit.
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Re: Does the type of ball/core matter when measuring PAP?

Post by boomer »

Hi Eric

I'd always been told that one's PAP was off the hand. Ideally it would be measured in the air, but that's not possible so it's measured as soon as the ball leaves the hand and in the oil so nothing affects it.

Wouldn't the core MOVE the PAP away from what it is? I mean, isn't the PAP the "base" and then the core does all the movement?

or am I mixing up some other acronym?

TX
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Re: Does the type of ball/core matter when measuring PAP?

Post by MegaMav »

Different core shapes affect how the ball sits in the hand and pulls on the hand at release, thus, even the "in the air" PAP will be different.
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EricHartwell
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Re: Does the type of ball/core matter when measuring PAP?

Post by EricHartwell »

boomer wrote: November 23rd, 2020, 4:28 pm Hi Eric

I'd always been told that one's PAP was off the hand. Ideally it would be measured in the air, but that's not possible so it's measured as soon as the ball leaves the hand and in the oil so nothing affects it.

Wouldn't the core MOVE the PAP away from what it is? I mean, isn't the PAP the "base" and then the core does all the movement?

or am I mixing up some other acronym?

TX
When trying to predict axis migration and the resultant flare lines you figure how many times the ball will revolve in the oil and time the acceleration of the core to work accordingly. Everything is basically figured from the length of the lane. What the ball doing in that 60 feet.
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Re: Does the type of ball/core matter when measuring PAP?

Post by TomaHawk »

MegaMav wrote: November 22nd, 2020, 5:58 pm Here is a question to ask: Does the average PAP of a bowler across the cores matter?
If we need to get within 1/8" on PAP to PASS/FAIL on ball motion, we should be putting it in orbit.
Agreed^^^ It would be easier to land on the moon, less variables.
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Re: Does the type of ball/core matter when measuring PAP?

Post by chan300 »

Pap is determined bey the bowlers release on a NON/Low Flaring ball. Typically I have customers throw there polyester ball or low differential reactive
ball. This will give your the best measurements on the first oil ring that is not influenced by core and cover.

Thank you
Martin Chan
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Re: Does the type of ball/core matter when measuring PAP?

Post by J_w73 »

chan300 wrote: March 9th, 2021, 8:21 pm Pap is determined bey the bowlers release on a NON/Low Flaring ball. Typically I have customers throw there polyester ball or low differential reactive
ball. This will give your the best measurements on the first oil ring that is not influenced by core and cover.

Thank you
Martin Chan
Custom Bowling Services
+1 ^^^^^^^
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Re: Does the type of ball/core matter when measuring PAP?

Post by TheJesus »

You can measure PAP while the ball is in the air, but you need to do it later on a computer. And the camera has to be decent and video record with good lighting. But i doubt it would vary much because a) most people's loft is small b) the air time in general is very small, c)many people do not have 400+ rpm, so even in the air the ball will not revolve much. Besides, small differences in layouts have little to none impact in ball motion.
Check out my bowling related YouTube channel ! BOWLING XP ! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1cTYc ... Eynuk0qdIw :mrgreen:
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