Want to learn basic fitting - need guidance

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JJakobsen
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Want to learn basic fitting - need guidance

Post by JJakobsen » November 21st, 2019, 8:11 pm

Hi! My bowling club has gotten a lot of new junior players the last couple of weeks, and the closest pro shop is 500km away, the closest pro shop I really know and trust is 920km away. This is a huge issue for our recruitment, and while I won't be able to learn how to drill balls, due to a too small market, I feel the need to learn how to do at least a fitting for first timers is needed now!

Now, span alone isn't too bad, I get a long way with another bowling ball with a 0/0 pitch thumb hole and a span gauge. Finger insert size is something that is actually harder, without having a lot of inserts. I need ideas here so I can find a proper insert size somehow, without buy 50 inserts myself. Let it be clear, I will make no money on this, this will be a free service I do, and I have to buy all equipment myself, so I can't go crazy, I part-own a bowling center, we all know how that business is these days.

Pitches is one place I struggle to understand, when to do what, is there any readable material on this? I know how important pitches are, I got 1" left pitch in my middle finger hole, and it sounds mad, but it helps keep my palm closer to the ball through the approach. But that's me, its all different for different players, and I have to be the one determining whats right for someone who hasn't bowled at all almost.

Thumb oval angle is pretty easy to get with a Pro Sect and a wax pencil. But the oval size, and thumb hole size in general, how do I do this without being able to try and fail a bit? Urethane slugs are glued and basically beaten into the ball, so there is no room for error like finger inserts which are changed in a minute.

As for equipment, I consider span gauge, Pro Sect and wax pencils the absolute basic minimum, which is where I will start too, already I'm over $100 in equipment for something I wanna do purely as a free service to others. I do want to buy a sander and bevel knife, I already got this thing you use to widen thumb holes, round blade on something that looks like a screw driver, you know what I mean. The sander is over $100 too, so I am getting high up there price-wise for a completely free of charge service, but that is equipment I can use for myself and is handy to have as a bowler.

So, any help here is appreciated, I am basically trying to learn the hardest part of drilling bowling balls, without actually learning how to drill bowling balls. I wanna keep it as simple as possible technique wise, so there is less chance of error. For new bowlers, their specs change pretty fast, so what I measure and send to the driller will probably be wrong no matter how well I do my job, but when they get to the point that they want more and better, I'd send them to a proper pro shop anyways.

My only interest in this is to get the new players their first ball with a good basic fitting to keep their interest in the sport, grow it, and let them out on their own after a while. My coaching certification is only up to 160 avg players according to ETBF so ;)
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Re: Want to learn basic fitting - need guidance

Post by bowl1820 » November 21st, 2019, 11:35 pm

A place to start would be the bowlingchat wiki in the Pro Shop Information section under fitting:

Proshop Information
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... nformation

Start with the IBPSIA Fitting Guide 2013 and the Morich Fitting Instructions those should give a idea of where to start.
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."

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JJakobsen
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Sport Average: 180
Positive Axis Point: 3 1/2 right, 1 1/2 up
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Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Marvel Pearl
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Re: Want to learn basic fitting - need guidance

Post by JJakobsen » November 22nd, 2019, 4:27 pm

bowl1820 wrote:A place to start would be the bowlingchat wiki in the Pro Shop Information section under fitting:

Proshop Information
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... nformation

Start with the IBPSIA Fitting Guide 2013 and the Morich Fitting Instructions those should give a idea of where to start.
I got told by my PSO he did not recommend reading anything older than 2015, as ETBF standardized some stuff back then. Not sure what exactly he meant, but my guess would be that Morich would say one thing, IBPSIA one thing, ETBF one thing, and some PSOs another thing again.

So, does the IBPSIA Fitting Guide still apply with these conditions?
68.2353°N 14.5636°E is where it happens!

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JJakobsen
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Joined: March 10th, 2013, 9:59 pm
Sport Average: 180
Positive Axis Point: 3 1/2 right, 1 1/2 up
Speed: 15.5 downlane
Rev Rate: 450
Axis Tilt: 0
Axis Rotation: 30
Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Marvel Pearl
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick Inferno
Light Oil Ball: Storm Timeless
Preferred Company: 900 Global
Location: Svolvær, Lofoten, Norway

Re: Want to learn basic fitting - need guidance

Post by JJakobsen » November 22nd, 2019, 7:35 pm

I do have a question about lateral thumb pitches. I have tried the spray can printable sheet, and with my span at around 4 1/8, well, I need more lines up top. Then again, I do just under 1" left pitch in my current equipment, so it might be correct, and my hand is just FUBAR. Not sure how I should go forward with a smaller can, if that is the issue.

Are there no guidelines for can size related to span? Something someone wrote down while testing this out?

EDIT: Tested it with my left hand, and the result was close to identical.

Using household items to read stuff like this is absolute gold for me, trying to do this as well as I can, for as little money as I can. No pun intended :lol:
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Re: Want to learn basic fitting - need guidance

Post by JimH » November 22nd, 2019, 7:42 pm

Your PSO has definite ideas as to what you should do. While you do not plan to do any ball drilling yourself, you could ask your PSO if he can provide the basic training needed for you to measure a beginner's hand. The drilling of bowling balls can be done by that PSO. I suggest that you tell the bowlers who get equipment using this method that the assessmennt and measurement of the hand needs to be done from time to time. Normally when a child needs to get new shoes the hand needs to be measured again. When the feet grow so does the hand. Bowling should not hurt and if the hand or arm hurts then the fitting needs to checked. The child and the parents of the child bowler should also look to see if the skin on the hand or fingers gets a callus or hard skin. That is not necessarily a bad thing but does need to be monitored. A callus is simply one way the body protects itself from damage. Personally I would not fit a child under the age of 14 with a fingertip ball. Other PSOs might have different ideas but I want to ensure the child's hand and bones are mature enough for that fitting.

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JJakobsen
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Joined: March 10th, 2013, 9:59 pm
Sport Average: 180
Positive Axis Point: 3 1/2 right, 1 1/2 up
Speed: 15.5 downlane
Rev Rate: 450
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Axis Rotation: 30
Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Marvel Pearl
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick Inferno
Light Oil Ball: Storm Timeless
Preferred Company: 900 Global
Location: Svolvær, Lofoten, Norway

Re: Want to learn basic fitting - need guidance

Post by JJakobsen » November 22nd, 2019, 9:23 pm

JimH wrote:Your PSO has definite ideas as to what you should do. While you do not plan to do any ball drilling yourself, you could ask your PSO if he can provide the basic training needed for you to measure a beginner's hand. The drilling of bowling balls can be done by that PSO. I suggest that you tell the bowlers who get equipment using this method that the assessmennt and measurement of the hand needs to be done from time to time. Normally when a child needs to get new shoes the hand needs to be measured again. When the feet grow so does the hand. Bowling should not hurt and if the hand or arm hurts then the fitting needs to checked. The child and the parents of the child bowler should also look to see if the skin on the hand or fingers gets a callus or hard skin. That is not necessarily a bad thing but does need to be monitored. A callus is simply one way the body protects itself from damage. Personally I would not fit a child under the age of 14 with a fingertip ball. Other PSOs might have different ideas but I want to ensure the child's hand and bones are mature enough for that fitting.
Youngest junior I got is 17, so that is no worry! As for my PSO, he is WAY too far away for me to just go visit, I would NOT walk the 500 miles to get to his door :P

All I learn, I have to read up on, and test on live subjects, without necessarily actually using the numbers I get from them. Just doing a few people multiple times will check if I actually do this consistently. I got a full centers worth of house balls which will make span measurement easier among other things. Insert size is a struggle, where is the insert 45/64, smallest diameter, largest diameter?

Except for this, I am 100% on my own on learning and practicing this craft.
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Re: Want to learn basic fitting - need guidance

Post by JimH » November 22nd, 2019, 10:37 pm

JJakobsen wrote: Youngest junior I got is 17, so that is no worry! As for my PSO, he is WAY too far away for me to just go visit, I would NOT walk the 500 miles to get to his door :P

All I learn, I have to read up on, and test on live subjects, without necessarily actually using the numbers I get from them. Just doing a few people multiple times will check if I actually do this consistently. I got a full centers worth of house balls which will make span measurement easier among other things. Insert size is a struggle, where is the insert 45/64, smallest diameter, largest diameter?

Except for this, I am 100% on my own on learning and practicing this craft.
There is a lot you can learn from research, however it will not replace the guidance you get working with someone who can monitor your progress. For example when you need to assess flexibility of the bowler's fingers and hand your fingertips need to learn that. That involves you manipulating the bowler's hand wth your hand.

I will think about it and try to determine another way for to progress this.

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Re: Want to learn basic fitting - need guidance

Post by JimH » November 23rd, 2019, 6:08 pm

Your PSO told you not to read anything written before 2015. I am going to suggest getting some books. One written by Bill Taylor, who died in 2009. Taylor wrote a book about fitting a bowlng ball. I believe all measuring and fitting methods are based on Bill Taylor's work. Taylor also designed some measuring tools that you should bind helpful when you start measuring.

The second is by Ron Hoppe. Hoppe is a USBC Gold Coach and founder of the IBPSIA.

The books are written in English, which I believe you should be able deal with.

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Re: Want to learn basic fitting - need guidance

Post by bowl1820 » November 24th, 2019, 12:41 am

JJakobsen wrote:
November 22nd, 2019, 7:35 pm
Are there no guidelines for can size related to span? Something someone wrote down while testing this out?
The Coke can test for thumb pitch was based on the four MoRich fitting tubes , the four tubes sizes were 2", then 2.5", then 3" and 3.5" in diameter. but there's nothing that I've seen that relates those tube sizes to particular span sizes. There maybe something in the original instructions for the Org. tubes, But nobody has ever said they had a copy of those instructions.

IMO
The 2" is for a smaller hand like maybe a child, teen , petite woman that sort of thing.
The 2.5" is for most average size hands (A Coke can is 2.6" in Dia.so thats why you see it used a lot)
The 3" for a little bigger hand
The 3.5" size IMO is only for someone with a monster hand

My spans are 4 3/16" & 4 1/8" and the 2.5" dia. is okay for it.
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."

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Re: Want to learn basic fitting - need guidance

Post by bowl1820 » November 24th, 2019, 12:49 am

Something of interest

This (Org. posted by TonyPR) is Joe Slowinski's take on thumb lateral base fit:
thumb angle.png
Note: I was measured by a Proshop with a 3/16" lateral thumb pitch and that matches with Joes chart here and the coke can test for what that's worth. I'm not saying that verifies the accuracy of those test's, just that they matched with my measurements. Also remember these tests are just starting points for thumb pitch, that pitch may have to be tweaked later on.
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Re: Want to learn basic fitting - need guidance

Post by JimH » November 24th, 2019, 1:11 pm

JJakobsen wrote:
November 22nd, 2019, 7:35 pm
Are there no guidelines for can size related to span? Something someone wrote down while testing this out?
You really need to assess and measure the bowler's hand. Twin brothers came to me one day for bowling bowls, the boys were 14 years old. The measurements were different so I would not recommend a generic measurement for any bowler.

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JJakobsen
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Joined: March 10th, 2013, 9:59 pm
Sport Average: 180
Positive Axis Point: 3 1/2 right, 1 1/2 up
Speed: 15.5 downlane
Rev Rate: 450
Axis Tilt: 0
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Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Marvel Pearl
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick Inferno
Light Oil Ball: Storm Timeless
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Re: Want to learn basic fitting - need guidance

Post by JJakobsen » November 25th, 2019, 4:18 pm

JimH wrote:
November 24th, 2019, 1:11 pm
You really need to assess and measure the bowler's hand. Twin brothers came to me one day for bowling bowls, the boys were 14 years old. The measurements were different so I would not recommend a generic measurement for any bowler.
Reason for me asking about the coke can, was more of a special case: My own. I got pretty extreme pitches to keep my hand more on the ball, just over 4" span on my middle finger, and pretty stiff joints.

If someone uses my can and it seems correct, it most likely is, but for my sake, my thumb is 2 whole inches from the 3/8 line, so I would say I would need a smaller can for the same to apply to me. Without being certain, my thumb pitch is close to 1" left in my current equipment, and I have no issues releasing the ball and playing for hours. My body gives in before my hand does.

I would never just use a generic measurement, thats why I'm here! My plan is to use my house balls to measure span with a span gauge, find thumb oval with the same house ball and a Pro Sect, and calipers for stuff like thumb size and maybe finger insert size until I can get hold of some of the most used sizes. And the can for thumb lateral pitch. The rest I kinda sorta know from the IBPSIA manual.

What is holding me back right now is the lack of funds for a Pro Sect, span gauge and wax pencils! If I had that, I would start testing on my juniors and see if I get results that at least SEEM to be correct. I could also do my own with the help of a friend, and see if we get what I actually got now.
68.2353°N 14.5636°E is where it happens!

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JJakobsen
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Posts: 271
Joined: March 10th, 2013, 9:59 pm
Sport Average: 180
Positive Axis Point: 3 1/2 right, 1 1/2 up
Speed: 15.5 downlane
Rev Rate: 450
Axis Tilt: 0
Axis Rotation: 30
Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Marvel Pearl
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick Inferno
Light Oil Ball: Storm Timeless
Preferred Company: 900 Global
Location: Svolvær, Lofoten, Norway

Re: Want to learn basic fitting - need guidance

Post by JJakobsen » November 25th, 2019, 4:30 pm

JimH wrote:
November 23rd, 2019, 6:08 pm
Your PSO told you not to read anything written before 2015. I am going to suggest getting some books. One written by Bill Taylor, who died in 2009. Taylor wrote a book about fitting a bowlng ball. I believe all measuring and fitting methods are based on Bill Taylor's work. Taylor also designed some measuring tools that you should bind helpful when you start measuring.

The second is by Ron Hoppe. Hoppe is a USBC Gold Coach and founder of the IBPSIA.

The books are written in English, which I believe you should be able deal with.
My guess is there are changes to where and how you measure that is the reason behind it. As you probably understand, I am in Europe, and under the ETBF.

I will try to source the books when I can afford it! :)
68.2353°N 14.5636°E is where it happens!

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