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 Post subject: New USBC rule disastrous for two handers in symmetrics
 Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:18 am Post Number: #1 Post
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With the balance hole banning rules it is practically impossible to know what a symmetrical ball will do for a two hander because PSOs will never know before hand where the PSA will end after the ball is drilled, has anyone put a two handed drilled symm on the determinator? No layout is going to be really effective in terms of reaction design. I guess manufacturers will have to make cuasi-symmetric balls to solve this issue. Any thoughts/solutions to this problem?

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 Post subject: Re: New USBC rule disastrous for two handers in symmetrics
 Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:11 am Post Number: #2 Post
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2y2 wrote:
With the balance hole banning rules it is practically impossible to know what a symmetrical ball will do for a two hander because PSOs will never know before hand where the PSA will end after the ball is drilled, has anyone put a two handed drilled symm on the determinator? No layout is going to be really effective in terms of reaction design. I guess manufacturers will have to make cuasi-symmetric balls to solve this issue. Any thoughts/solutions to this problem?

Mo says the PSA will be on a line 6 3/4" from the pin through the "in-between" the finger holes. That is why he wants the fingers drilled deep on a symmetrical ball.

Here is a video you might like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTB_Edv8obE

What you are looking for is at about 2 minutes and 30 seconds into the video.
Also, he says it again at the end of the video. 10:40


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 Post subject: Re: New USBC rule disastrous for two handers in symmetrics
 Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:30 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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A thought on how to know where the post-drilling psa will be. -- JohnP

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14367


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 Post subject: Re: New USBC rule disastrous for two handers in symmetrics
 Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:32 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
Mo says the PSA will be on a line 6 3/4" from the pin through the "in-between" the finger holes. That is why he wants the fingers drilled deep on a symmetrical ball.

Here is a video you might like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTB_Edv8obE

What you are looking for is at about 2 minutes and 30 seconds into the video.
Also, he says it again at the end of the video. 10:40


We saw a demonstration at the Kegel Training Center two hands bowling clinic and yes, psa ends at 90* from the pin but it can be anywhere 360 degrees around, we spinned som Chris Via’s balls and for all diffrerent symms there were no clue of where the PSA would end beforehand, no matter what the guess was it ended at the most weird places all at 90* from the pin.

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 Post subject: Re: New USBC rule disastrous for two handers in symmetrics
 Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:52 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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JohnP wrote:
A thought on how to know where the post-drilling psa will be. -- JohnP

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14367


That’s a great idea!

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 Post subject: Re: New USBC rule disastrous for two handers in symmetrics
 Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:23 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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2y2 wrote:

We saw a demonstration at the Kegel Training Center two hands bowling clinic and yes, psa ends at 90* from the pin but it can be anywhere 360 degrees around, we spinned som Chris Via’s balls and for all diffrerent symms there were no clue of where the PSA would end beforehand, no matter what the guess was it ended at the most weird places all at 90* from the pin.

Did he have the fingers drilled deep? How big were they around? More or less.


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 Post subject: Re: New USBC rule disastrous for two handers in symmetrics
 Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:37 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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They should change the rule to allow for three holes, which should all be simultaneously usable for gripping the ball. Omitting thumb or finger insertion for delivery would be allowable providing the ball passed the aforementioned rule.

This would allow a bowler to legally use a single ball for strikes (thumbless), and spares (thumb-in).
The USBC should not be in the business of mandating multiple ball arsenals for specific styles of bowling.

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 Post subject: Re: New USBC rule disastrous for two handers in symmetrics
 Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:44 am Post Number: #8 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
Did he have the fingers drilled deep? How big were they around? More or less.


No, he has very small holes for the fingers in fact he does not use inserts (well I can't remember if it was him who didn't use inserts or it was the Weber player), In his Phaze II he has a balance hole, he uses it a lot because it is not clear wether PBA will adopt the new USBC rule or not, anyway right now many of them are sponsored so they can drill as many balls as they want, so once they drill one they can know where the PSA is for that ball the next time they drill it.

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 Post subject: Re: New USBC rule disastrous for two handers in symmetrics
 Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:33 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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You are correct Jorge, Chris Via has drilled over 30 Phase IIs so he told me he can just, from experience, just eyeball pin placement and balance hole location and know how the ball will react. We also saw an interesting effect on the Tactix we spun, even though it had a balance hole, the PSA stayed where the manufacturer’s PSA marker was. What’s gonna happen is that manufacturers will start doing more and more Asymm cored balls with different degrees of asymmetry, of all the manufacturers Track is the only one I believe who currently has very mild, medium and strong asymmetrical cores.

This rule will mostly affect no thumb bowlers as we will gradually have to lean more towards balls with a marked PSA. A symmetrical ball with a thumbhole will always have the PSA on or very near the hole... remember when we spun my Black Hammer? It effectively has like a 120* Drilling angle, no wonder I need to use a lot of surface on it.


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 Post subject: Re: New USBC rule disastrous for two handers in symmetrics
 Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:00 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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It would be very interesting and informative if we can also get input from some accomplished two handed bowler's.

Two Handed Bowling is one way new bowler's are attracted, and some bowler's who have quit or are on the verge of quitting resuscitate their enjoyment of the sport.

The USBC should be prepared to modify any rule resulting in unintended harmful consequences.

We want to grow the sport, not put it in reverse.

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 Post subject: Re: New USBC rule disastrous for two handers in symmetrics
 Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:01 am Post Number: #11 Post
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We drill for 10 no thumbers/2-handers at our shop. We use all the layout info Mo provides for these bowlers. Our focus is on PIN to PAP distances and VAL angles (pin buffer) for symmetrical balls. Then, we tweak the surface for earlier/later 'hook' motion. So far, the players are happy with the results. These guys/gals are still throwing wood with symmetrical 'rocks.'


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 Post subject: Re: New USBC rule disastrous for two handers in symmetrics
 Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:05 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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Great! Have you spun some of those symms? It would be interesting to see where the psa ends on those ones.

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 Post subject: Re: New USBC rule disastrous for two handers in symmetrics
 Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:00 am Post Number: #13 Post
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No, unfortunately we do not own a determinator. Applying Mo's rule of 6 3/4 on a line from PIN through center of grip (finger hole bridge) the PSA falls approx within a range of 5 1/2 to 6 3/4 from the PAP. So far, good ball reaction on syms (no balance hole) with no thumbers . . . just tweak original layout with surface.


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 Post subject: Re: New USBC rule disastrous for two handers in symmetrics
 Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:19 am Post Number: #14 Post
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Vendetta wrote:
No, unfortunately we do not own a determinator. Applying Mo's rule of 6 3/4 on a line from PIN through center of grip (finger hole bridge) the PSA falls approx within a range of 5 1/2 to 6 3/4 from the PAP. So far, good ball reaction on syms (no balance hole) with no thumbers . . . just tweak original layout with surface.


Its 6 3/4" from the Low RG axis within 1/2" of the centerline at that point.

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