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 Post subject: Need help
 Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:51 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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I honestly feel I'm a good fit away from being an excellent bowler. Recently I have been having trouble getting a consistent release; I believe this is due to my thumb hole being too tight on the bottom on some nights due to swelling (i used a tiered taping system to tighten it at the bottom of the hole where the tip of my thumb goes and then made a mold of that thumb for custom slugs), thus preventing me from putting my thumb as far in as i can on some nights. I just had a new thumb hole drilled with the exact some specs but a much cleaner hole. I cannot get out of the new thumb hole. Pitches are 1/8 reverse and a 1/4 left, which falls in line with IBPSIA guidelines and with the Wiki page on this site relative to my span and hand flexibility. Even when I use tape to tighten the bottom of this new hole, I cannot release the ball even via a ground roll, let alone a full swing. I do have a flexible and possibly double jointed thumb.

If I maintain an angle at the thumb joint like in the video below, the hole seems to fit very well:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LAHReJ ... sp=sharing

However, if I actually try to swing the ball in any way (making a very concerted effort to not apply any grip pressure at all), it will not come off my thumb like so:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19dZ9kj ... sp=sharing

I believe this issue has something to do with my thumb's ability to do this:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qqDvbc ... sp=sharing

when I let the ball hang at my side, it will not fall off of my hand (an indication of a good fit i believe), however the weight of the ball pulls my thumb joint forward.

Does anyone have any idea as to what I fix needs to be made to my fit? Has anyone encountered a flexible thumb such as mine, and if so, what changes to drilling did you make to accommodate such a thumb?

For reference, here is a video of my release (I work the inside of the ball and come up the back of the ball)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hA_nbk ... sp=sharing

Any help would be greatly appreciated!


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 Post subject: Re: Need help
 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:45 am Post Number: #2 Post
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Your physical game looks solid. Try beveling a bit, to do this insert only the MF then the thumb and mark where you feel a slight pressure on the thumbhole, repeat with RF and bevel a bit. You should not need too much bevel. If this doesn’t work you could shorten span 1/16. A thumbhole doesn’t need to be too tight, just snug, span and pitches play a greater role in making the ball hold on to you. Your release looks fine in the video so probably all you need is minor tweaks, having a large enough thumbhole to fit 5-7 pieces of tape is a good idea to be able to adjust for thumb size fluctuations due to weather, salt intake, hydration or number of games bowled. Different size interchangeables help too. Hope this helps, please report back. Also, might sound basic but never bend the thumb knuckle, keep it straight and hold the ball with the base of your thumb like if cutting with scissors.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help
 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:07 am Post Number: #3 Post
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The previous poster gave excellent advice regarding the tweaking of your ball fit. But please allow me to add what I see.

You have near-perfect form. However, I see few small interrelated flaws that can cause a series of problems with the feeling of an erratic thumb release being one.

If you look at your swing plane, you will see a slightly flared swing with it going a tad bit to far behind the back and not quite tucked into the ankle enough in the release zone. Additionally, the lack of solid balance at the release is causing you to fall out of the shot and pop up (at least in this casej right after you release the ball. If this happens during the release, you will wind up hanging up because you’ll have to grab at it or drop it short, giving you the sensation of a hanging thumb.

The most important thing I see is that you have absolutely no crossover in your second
-to-the-last step. Your right foot in the 3rd step should be direcly in front of your left foot (for a 4-step player). Doing so helps your hip to get a bit more out of the way of the downswing and most importantly, it creates an temporary imbalance to the right that will cause the last step (slide) to “fill in the hole” by getting more under your chin leaving you solid at the release and post shot with the ball whizzing by the ankle.

You may also need to add a bit more “sit” to the left as you come through the shot to add a little left side counter balance to reduce the right side center of gravity bias that’s contributing your falling and popping up.

I’d like to see a photo of that unusual thumb joint movement you mentioned that happens when you hang the ball by your side such as in a mock release drill.

I hope this helps.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help
 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:20 am Post Number: #4 Post
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Thank you for your observations Paul, your post made me want to dig deeper into if a physical game flaw may be causing the hang up. Here’s what I found. Please note that us coaches are trained to look at cause and effect and we must be careful not to focus only on the symptoms. We can also agree to disagree in some of the points, mainly modern style vs classic style.

1) The swing goes behind the back (not a little but a lot). This could be caused by various reasons but I will not get into that for two reasons, I do not want to overwhelm the original poster into focusing in many things at a time and two I do not see it as a priority. It could be fixed later if needed.

2) Ball not super close to ankle, you’re correct, it could be closer but I do not consider it a priority for now so lets not focus on that.

3) Not the best balance at posting the shot. I agree this is of concern and I believe I know what is causing this but before I mention it let me explain (and we may disagree in this) the aspects I see that are ok for a modern style player:

-Ball under head at release
-Not sliding into the ball’s path
-Good transfer of weight from pivot step to slide foot (balance leg foot in the air is ok and sometimes necessary in the modern game)

To place the power step in front of the slide foot to cause an inbalance so the slide goes under the chin and “sitting” are things that were taught a while back but are not part of the modern power game so I respectfully disagree in these points.

What I did see is that when the slide heel touches the floor, the ball is much lower than parallel to the approach, this means the OP is most likely pulling the ball down from the top of the swing and this may be causing the inbalance at release and the grabbing from pulling down may be causing the hanging.

Make sure you do not use muscle to bring the ball to the top of the backswing or to bring it down from the top of the backswing, gravity is your friend, wait for it.

For reference, coach Mark Baker analyzed various pros and found a common denominator in the timing of the top level players he studied, when the slide foot heel touched the approach the arm of these players was parallel to almost parallel to the approach.

For more in depth analysis of your physical game by certified coaches if you wish you can post rear and side view videos in our certified coaching section, just follow the guidelines in that same section of our forum.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help
 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:11 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Thanks for your comments. I hope no one thinks we’re going too far off topic as execution and ball fit are interdependent.

I too am a certified coach. I do continually study the modern game as it’s understanding evolves. When I started bowling, there were no real coaches beyond the walk straight, square shoulder unsolicited advice. But, when I look at what bowlers have available to them today and how that reflects on the widespread emegence of quality bowlers on the amateur and professional scene, I am impressed. I attribute it to advances in communication (i.e. Internet) and the attendant widespread dispersal of knowledge, which would be in affectual without the people that commit themselves to coaching.

Yes, there are various schools of thought and all these little technicalities in the modern game. I would say out of all the “modern masters” I subscribe to Joe’s Slowinski‘s and Mo’s teachings more than any other.

BTW, I found it ironic when I read your mention of Bakes - only because when I first saw the OP’s video, Mark’s style popped into my mind. I’ve been a fan of his for years. I find his teachings much more accessible for some because it focuses on several basic common denominators, as you’ve said, and much like Mo’s “See It, Feel It, Do It” approach, it helps the bowler achieve changes by using mental imaging techniques to “fool” the body into attaining the desired changes. Not everybody has the intimate command of the minutae of the very complex series of movements that each part of the body has to make to perform a good delivery. I feel this type of teaching is well suited for the naturally talented bowler who really doesn’t know how he “does it”.

Back to the OP: I hope to see followup comments from him; I always enjoy seeing a good bowler solve his or her particular issue.

Happy New Year to all.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help
 Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:46 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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Regarding "fit" , the "wikifit" is frequently referred to on the forum
See
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... itting.pdf

At about 1:42 Ron Hoppe illustrates a simple drill to help assess thumb fit.



If you have time and inclination, look at the presentations by Ruben and Del
On the World Bowling Coaches Conference. I've copied the indices.
You can cruise YouTube for additional years .

Del addresses alignment and things in the approach can force a bad swing.
Remember, the Coachs are basing instruction on observation, cause and effect, but all will acknowledge that bowling is a Sport of exceptions to "rules". That is, natural athletes can succeed based on skill, they overcome that which would scuttle most of us.

2018 World Bowling Coaches Conference Sessions
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13975

Question for coaches, how do you teach body alignment?
Anyone familiar with Ritgers fractional heal tilt side to side ?

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 Post subject: Re: Need help
 Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:44 am Post Number: #7 Post
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Good stuff. Del is right on with his analysis of common body alignment issues that abound. The OP is yet another example of this common issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help
 Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:25 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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MineralitePaul wrote:
The previous poster gave excellent advice regarding the tweaking of your ball fit. But please allow me to add what I see.

You have near-perfect form. However, I see few small interrelated flaws that can cause a series of problems with the feeling of an erratic thumb release being one.

If you look at your swing plane, you will see a slightly flared swing with it going a tad bit to far behind the back and not quite tucked into the ankle enough in the release zone. Additionally, the lack of solid balance at the release is causing you to fall out of the shot and pop up (at least in this casej right after you release the ball. If this happens during the release, you will wind up hanging up because you’ll have to grab at it or drop it short, giving you the sensation of a hanging thumb.

The most important thing I see is that you have absolutely no crossover in your second
-to-the-last step. Your right foot in the 3rd step should be direcly in front of your left foot (for a 4-step player). Doing so helps your hip to get a bit more out of the way of the downswing and most importantly, it creates an temporary imbalance to the right that will cause the last step (slide) to “fill in the hole” by getting more under your chin leaving you solid at the release and post shot with the ball whizzing by the ankle.

You may also need to add a bit more “sit” to the left as you come through the shot to add a little left side counter balance to reduce the right side center of gravity bias that’s contributing your falling and popping up.

I’d like to see a photo of that unusual thumb joint movement you mentioned that happens when you hang the ball by your side such as in a mock release drill.

I hope this helps.


Thank you for the feedback. I have known about the early timing and swing going behind my back for awhile now, however I did not know about the power step needing to cross over more. For the sake of simplification and my sanity I've been trying to address one issue at a time, and the early timing seems to be the most important in terms of developing a consistent shot. I will work on the swing plane once I feel my timing is more on point with the pros. In watching videos of some modern pros I did notice that not all of them have a complete cross over step for their power step, but some did. Below are some pictures of the thumb joint you requested. One is just my hand inserted into the ball as if I were setting up for a shot, and the other is the ball hanging from the side as if it were in the swing or a release drill (keep in mind that I am applying no grip pressure here, the ball is hanging onto my hand and pulls the thumb joint forward).

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Mw0j7 ... 1u64m4LhBE

https://drive.google.com/open?id=19vFiM ... jQteqhIMib


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 Post subject: Re: Need help
 Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:28 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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kajmk wrote:
Regarding "fit" , the "wikifit" is frequently referred to on the forum
See
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... itting.pdf

At about 1:42 Ron Hoppe illustrates a simple drill to help assess thumb fit.



If you have time and inclination, look at the presentations by Ruben and Del
On the World Bowling Coaches Conference. I've copied the indices.
You can cruise YouTube for additional years .

Del addresses alignment and things in the approach can force a bad swing.
Remember, the Coachs are basing instruction on observation, cause and effect, but all will acknowledge that bowling is a Sport of exceptions to "rules". That is, natural athletes can succeed based on skill, they overcome that which would scuttle most of us.

2018 World Bowling Coaches Conference Sessions
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13975

Question for coaches, how do you teach body alignment?
Anyone familiar with Ritgers fractional heal tilt side to side ?


These are excellent resources and I'm learning a lot from watching these; thank you for the post!


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 Post subject: Re: Need help
 Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:03 am Post Number: #10 Post
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Thank you for the feedback. I have known about the early timing and swing going behind my back for awhile now, however I did not know about the power step needing to cross over more. For the sake of simplification and my sanity I've been trying to address one issue at a time, and the early timing seems to be the most important in terms of developing a consistent shot. I will work on the swing plane once I feel my timing is more on point with the pros. In watching videos of some modern pros I did notice that not all of them have a complete cross over step for their power step, but some did. Below are some pictures of the thumb joint you requested. One is just my hand inserted into the ball as if I were setting up for a shot, and the other is the ball hanging from the side as if it were in the swing or a release drill (keep in mind that I am applying no grip pressure here, the ball is hanging onto my hand and pulls the thumb joint forward).

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Mw0j7 ... 1u64m4LhBE

https://drive.google.com/open?id=19vFiM ... jQteqhIMib[/quote]


That second photo with the ball hanging by your side is not how your hand and thumb will look during the downswing and release; it’s not a legitimate model. The static G-force load with the ball hanging is not the actual dynamic load your hand experiences during your delivery as you let the ball float at the top and drop down into the release zone. If executed with little muscle input - a slight chasing of the ball down thru arc will reduce the G-force load on your hand. Ergo, your hand won’t look like it does in your second photo during an actual delivery. A high frame-rate camera will demonstrate this. Anything more than this type of effort will cause reduced revs and possible grabing as one pulls the ball through hard instead of waiting on it until the release starts as the ball reaches that back of your sliding shoe. It’s at this point that an additional hand acceleration is added to cause the strong wrist/hand position to unload.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help
 Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:06 am Post Number: #11 Post
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None of these players cross over their pivot step:

https://youtu.be/PtrDZc7yu6w

Coach Del on footwork:

https://youtu.be/C2VQ8Sd1yoA


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 Post subject: Re: Need help
 Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:53 am Post Number: #12 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
None of these players cross over their pivot step:

https://youtu.be/PtrDZc7yu6w

Coach Del on footwork:

https://youtu.be/C2VQ8Sd1yoA


On the telecast, which I’ve watched 3 times, you never really get to see the footwork because of the stupid graphics and the elevated camera angle, but I caught a few glimpses of what you are talking about and it appears you are absolutely correct. The two-hander’s footwork is so specific to that particular style I’m not so sure it’s applicable to general instruction. Also, the larger guys like Tom Dougherty have a body mass that so swamps the weight of the ball, that they can be a little bit more loose with the foorwork and not loose leverage. But clearly Dom is not doing a full crossover; its darn near closer to tight rope inline step.

Regarding the Del Warren video: Wow... That is the best footwork instructional I’ve seen yet. Thank-you for sharing it. So the penultimate step is really a half or 3/4 tightrope step and not really a crossover step. After seeing this, I videoed myself and that’s exactly how I’m doing it.

Perhaps that “crossover” idea is a visualization trick to get one’s body into achieving that inline tightrope step or maybe the game has just changed that much. More personal research shall be done.

That cadence drill is fantastic. I’ve never seen it presented that way along with the stride details and the tunnel model. Awesome work. I’m going to write a metronome app that will repeat that uneven rhythm and practice to it

Also, what does Del mean by “parallel left” of the target line at 2:10? Heh?

Thanks again for sharing. Once there’s nothing left to learn, life becomes not worth living.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help
 Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:38 am Post Number: #13 Post
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By parallel left of the target line he means “parallel” to your target line (arrows to focal point on pins, for example a line from the middle of the 6 pin through the third arrow to the corresponding board on the foul line and “left” of it 5-7 boards to allow enough space for the ball.

Del is great, I’ve had the opportunity to take a few lessons with him plus I got to pick his brain a couple of years ago when we took a group of the youth we coach here in PR to the training center, I got to stand next to him through every video analysis and coaching he did of our kids so that I could follow up back home. It was a great learning experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help
 Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:30 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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Having a crossover step at the pivot step only requires getting your right heel in front of your left foot (for a right hander), as their toes are facing right to keep their hips open a bit.

On that telecast, three of the players do this - see attached. Jesper and Jacob's pivot steps are extremely quick which means they don't need to crossover as much. Jesper's pivot step placement is a rarity amongst pro bowlers.

With your timing ModernGame, you get the ball into your swing very early, and from then on the ball is ahead of your feet, so by the release, you have to use your upper body to get some ball speed - see how your head dips during the release. With your pivot step slightly right and the ball being left of your head at the top of the swing, you have to slide slightly left of your CG, and with your upper body lean to the right, you are always going to be in danger of falling off your shot.

You get your right hand into a great position just prior to the release, so if you can delay the ball into the swing a bit, straighten up your swing plane and crossover your pivot step even a board further left, you should be able to have a more stable upper body at the release and better balance at the line.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help
 Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:12 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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deanchamp wrote:
Having a crossover step at the pivot step only requires getting your right heel in front of your left foot (for a right hander), as their toes are facing right to keep their hips open a bit.

On that telecast, three of the players do this - see attached. Jesper and Jacob's pivot steps are extremely quick which means they don't need to crossover as much. Jesper's pivot step placement is a rarity amongst pro bowlers.

With your timing ModernGame, you get the ball into your swing very early, and from then on the ball is ahead of your feet, so by the release, you have to use your upper body to get some ball speed - see how your head dips during the release. With your pivot step slightly right and the ball being left of your head at the top of the swing, you have to slide slightly left of your CG, and with your upper body lean to the right, you are always going to be in danger of falling off your shot.

You get your right hand into a great position just prior to the release, so if you can delay the ball into the swing a bit, straighten up your swing plane and crossover your pivot step even a board further left, you should be able to have a more stable upper body at the release and better balance at the line.



Excellent analysis! Well done. Your students are blessed to have you as their coach.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help
 Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:52 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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I don’t see them crossing over, it’s a balance beam step and not completely in front of the non ball side foot, they are more like the shoes in Dels video. If the pivot step crosses over, the bowler will tend to compensate in the slide by sliding towards the ball side and getting into the ball’s path.


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 Post subject: Re: Need help
 Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:50 am Post Number: #17 Post
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Don’t forget the rule of ‘some’. How much should you crossover in your pivot step? Some.

There are no hard and fast rules. Brian Voss advocates a pivot step that is beside the position of the third step, and if you look at Kelly Kulick, this is precisely what she does.

Sorry for getting away from the original post a bit.

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