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 Post subject: Mo Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:49 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Is Skip-a-Grit surfacing as simple as going firm with one Abralon pan than skipping a grit (or couple of grits) then going light? For example:

40 seconds 500 grit firm
20 seconds 2000 grit light

Or

30 seconds 360 grit firm
45 seconds 1000 grit light
15 seconds Storm Strp 2 Compound

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 Post subject: Re: No Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:19 am Post Number: #2 Post
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I believe the last paragraph in this document will answer your question:

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... rmance.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: No Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:12 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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Hi, Tony and JMC.

This is a topic I fiddle with a bit, and believe that through experimentation, you develop a recipe that works for you.

Having said that, the Marion article was written in 2010, and doesn't quite jibe with Storm's Resurfacing Guides dated 2011 and 2012 (I am unaware of any newer). There are some subtle differences between the Storm Guides and the Roto Grip Guide. Whereas Marion states that you should sand longer and lighter at the higher grits, the Guides say the opposite. And, Marion talks about skipping a grit, but the Guides don't on the spinner-side of the document. I've talked with various Storm Technical Support people over the years, and I come away with a little tweak from them that sort of marries the Marion article with the Guides: use the grit sequence from the right side of the Guides for the resurfacing machine, and the timings from the left side of the Guides for the spinners.

Also, Mo has several videos on his Facebook page about how to resurface to factory specs using a spinner (when you don't have the high-speed factory machines). My take-away is that Mo suggests using same time over various grits, heavier pressure at 500, lighter pressure for the 1500 and 2000 grits, and heavier pressure for the 4000 grit (to replicate the high-speed/pressure factory machines).

I have tried various combinations over time, but can't say I have found the one that I like the best. I am currently following the recommendations from Mo's videos for my Radical equipment, and the Storm recommendations for their equipment.

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 Post subject: Re: No Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:28 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
I believe the last paragraph in this document will answer your question:

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images ... rmance.pdf



Not quite what I was looking for but something I will definately use and keep on file!

Thank you!

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 Post subject: Re: Mo Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:00 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Mo Pinel wrote:

Sand 4 ways thoroughly with the first grit and sand two ways quickly with the second grit to do the "skip a grit" procedure.


Mo Pinel wrote:
Not exactly! Four ways hard with the base grit and any two opposite ways lightly with the secondary grit.



Mo Pinel wrote:
I'm not versed enough on that math to comment, but have experience with abrasives and smoothing of surfaces. Regular surface scratches can create harmonics and tend to promote smooth, continuous motion. Irregular scratches tend to interrupt motion and can be used to increase the rate that balls transition. This is the basis for my "skip a grit" finishing technique used to promote earlier transitions and, therefore, help the ball read friction by helping to interrupt the skid phase. I keep recommending "true" grit sequences to promote smooth, continuous motion and "skip a grit" grit sequences to encourage the ball to transition faster.

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 Post subject: Re: Mo Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:20 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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Thank you Eric, I knew that I had read that before somewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Mo Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:24 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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MegaMav wrote:






What does he mean by thoroughly and quickly? And also 4 sides and 2 sides?

Thoroughly = firm?
Quickly = light?
4 side = fingers up, fingers down, fingers left, fingers right?
2 sides = fingers up, fingers down?

I’m using a single speed ball spinner.

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: No Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:26 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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Glenn wrote:
Hi, Tony and JMC.

This is a topic I fiddle with a bit, and believe that through experimentation, you develop a recipe that works for you.

Having said that, the Marion article was written in 2010, and doesn't quite jibe with Storm's Resurfacing Guides dated 2011 and 2012 (I am unaware of any newer). There are some subtle differences between the Storm Guides and the Roto Grip Guide. Whereas Marion states that you should sand longer and lighter at the higher grits, the Guides say the opposite. And, Marion talks about skipping a grit, but the Guides don't on the spinner-side of the document. I've talked with various Storm Technical Support people over the years, and I come away with a little tweak from them that sort of marries the Marion article with the Guides: use the grit sequence from the right side of the Guides for the resurfacing machine, and the timings from the left side of the Guides for the spinners.

Also, Mo has several videos on his Facebook page about how to resurface to factory specs using a spinner (when you don't have the high-speed factory machines). My take-away is that Mo suggests using same time over various grits, heavier pressure at 500, lighter pressure for the 1500 and 2000 grits, and heavier pressure for the 4000 grit (to replicate the high-speed/pressure factory machines).

I have tried various combinations over time, but can't say I have found the one that I like the best. I am currently following the recommendations from Mo's videos for my Radical equipment, and the Storm recommendations for their equipment.


Thanks for the info, looked for video and can’t find any. There’s no video on his fb page

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 Post subject: Re: No Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:42 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Glenn wrote:
Having said that, the Marion article was written in 2010, and doesn't quite jibe with Storm's Resurfacing Guides dated 2011 and 2012 (I am unaware of any newer). There are some subtle differences between the Storm Guides and the Roto Grip Guide. Whereas Marion states that you should sand longer and lighter at the higher grits, the Guides say the opposite. And, Marion talks about skipping a grit, but the Guides don't on the spinner-side of the document. I've talked with various Storm Technical Support people over the years, and I come away with a little tweak from them that sort of marries the Marion article with the Guides: use the grit sequence from the right side of the Guides for the resurfacing machine, and the timings from the left side of the Guides for the spinners.


Something to note here is that the article "From Possum to Performance: The Elusive Out of Box Reaction" By Victor Marion and the Storm/Roto resurfacing guides and "Skip-a-Grit" are talking about different things.

The resurfacing guides are just telling you the companies recommended steps for restoring a ball to it's Out Of Box (O.O.B.) surface (When using a spinner or the Surface Factory machine).

"Skip-a-Grit" is more about altering performance to match lane conditions, not about returning a ball to it's OOB state.

That's why there's differences in times and pressure and grit steps used.

Here is the newest Storm Maintenance Guide:
http://www.stormbowling.com/medias/reaction_guide_maintenance_poster2017-fnl.pdf

The thing with this guide is it doesn't tell the "Steps" just the final surfaces, the 2012 Guide appears to be the last steps guide.

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 Post subject: Re: Mo Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:46 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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https://www.facebook.com/11275244939415 ... 480369542/

https://www.facebook.com/11275244939415 ... 907034266/

https://www.facebook.com/11275244939415 ... 040365286/

https://www.facebook.com/11275244939415 ... 103698113/


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 Post subject: Re: Mo Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:46 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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Jmc1972 wrote:
And also 4 sides and 2 sides?

4 side = fingers up, fingers down, fingers left, fingers right?
2 sides = fingers up, fingers down?


6 sides of a ball

A easy way to remember the 6 sides of a ball, is to think of the box the ball comes in. And how you would turn that box to get to each side up.

Attachment:
ball_sides_01.jpg


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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 Post subject: Re: Mo Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:21 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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TonyPR wrote:



Thank you!

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 Post subject: Re: Mo Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:30 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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In the videos, Mo said #500 grit can be used for 10 balls before it turns into #800. How about 1000, 2000 and 4000?

https://www.facebook.com/11275244939415 ... 103698113/

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 Post subject: Re: Mo Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:32 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:

6 sides of a ball

A easy way to remember the 6 sides of a ball, is to think of the box the ball comes in. And how you would turn that box to get to each side up.

Attachment:
ball_sides_01.jpg


That’s how I normally do it. Most things I’ve read say 4 sides.

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 Post subject: Re: Mo Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:24 am Post Number: #15 Post
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How I remember the 6 sides of a ball...

Top
Bottom
Negative
Positive
Finger
Thumb

All the different sides of the ball that static weight is measured.

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 Post subject: Re: Mo Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:33 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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Using 4 sides the ball can get out of round if you are aggressively trying to take off some surface (getting rid of scratches). Mo is only touching up the surface in the videos.


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 Post subject: Re: Mo Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:34 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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Just a FYI:
There's a way to do all 6 sides of ball and still just do 4 sides for each step. It's all a matter of not going back to the same starting position at the start of each step.

Here's a example:

The 4000-grit factory finish
1. 500-grit Abralon® – Sand firmly for 30 seconds on all four sides.
2. 2000-grit Abralon – Sand lightly for 10 seconds on all four sides.
3. 4000-grit Abralon – Sand lightly for 5 seconds on all four sides.

Step one you do sides 1-2 then 3-4
Step two you do sides 5-6 then 1-2
Step three you do side 3-4 then 5-6

In this example you did all 4 sides on each step and you did all 6 sides twice at the same time.

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 Post subject: Re: Mo Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:54 am Post Number: #18 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:
Just a FYI:
There's a way to do all 6 sides of ball and still just do 4 sides for each step. It's all a matter of not going back to the same starting position at the start of each step.

Here's a example:

The 4000-grit factory finish
1. 500-grit Abralon® – Sand firmly for 30 seconds on all four sides.
2. 2000-grit Abralon – Sand lightly for 10 seconds on all four sides.
3. 4000-grit Abralon – Sand lightly for 5 seconds on all four sides.

Step one you do sides 1-2 then 3-4
Step two you do sides 5-6 then 1-2
Step three you do side 3-4 then 5-6

In this example you did all 4 sides on each step and you did all 6 sides twice at the same time.


Very interesting approach. Thanks.

I do 6 sides by hands because pressure is not evenly distributed across the sand pad. When using sand cup (https://nebula.wsimg.com/17826134dadd5d ... oworigin=1) and moving the cup up and down, I do 4 sides only.

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 Post subject: Re: Mo Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:13 am Post Number: #19 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:
Just a FYI:
There's a way to do all 6 sides of ball and still just do 4 sides for each step. It's all a matter of not going back to the same starting position at the start of each step.

Here's a example:

The 4000-grit factory finish
1. 500-grit Abralon® – Sand firmly for 30 seconds on all four sides.
2. 2000-grit Abralon – Sand lightly for 10 seconds on all four sides.
3. 4000-grit Abralon – Sand lightly for 5 seconds on all four sides.

Step one you do sides 1-2 then 3-4
Step two you do sides 5-6 then 1-2
Step three you do side 3-4 then 5-6

In this example you did all 4 sides on each step and you did all 6 sides twice at the same time.


Thank you for the response -

This makes complete sense - How about if when the steps call for only 2 grits - for example only using 360 grit and 1000 grit?

Would you do 360-grit for sides 1-2-3-4-5-6 and 1000 for 1-2-3-4-5-6?

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 Post subject: Re: Mo Pinel’s Skip-a-Grit
 Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:29 am Post Number: #20 Post
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Jmc1972 wrote:

Thank you for the response -

This makes complete sense - How about if when the steps call for only 2 grits - for example only using 360 grit and 1000 grit?

Would you do 360-grit for sides 1-2-3-4-5-6 and 1000 for 1-2-3-4-5-6?


NO, your doing too many sides on each step, since most steps only do 4 sides not 6.

For 360 you would do sides 1-2 then 3-4
Then for the 1000 you would do sides 5-6 then 1-2

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