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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:34 pm Post Number: #21 Post
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kajmk wrote:


It would seem that analysis of the physical game would be in order. That would also involve analysis of the grip.
If your game can be improved via technique, I think that would be a good step.


So I messed around with my release last night. I started holding the ball so my index finger was right behind the ball and pointing down at the bottom of my swing. This allowed me to get more rotation, more rpm, more hook, and more continuation... Only problem, is it reminded me why I don't throw the ball like that. Because I get a callous on the tip of my finger and it is sometimes painful it that finger after releasing it that was over time. I also get pain on my inside elbow joint because that is not the natural position my shoulder, arm, wrist, and hand want to be in.

I also feel that I am not as accurate and consistent with that release style

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:36 pm Post Number: #22 Post
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J_w73 wrote:

So I messed around with my release last night. I started holding the ball so my index finger was right behind the ball and pointing down at the bottom of my swing. This allowed me to get more rotation, more rpm, more hook, and more continuation... Only problem, is it reminded me why I don't throw the ball like that. Because I get a callous on the tip of my finger and it is sometimes painful it that finger after releasing it that was over time. I also get pain on my inside elbow joint because that is not the natural position my shoulder, arm, wrist, and hand want to be in.

I also feel that I am not as accurate and consistent with that release style


Rob's point about working with an instructor is a very good one.

Finger position as you described is a fine tuning technique, see Ron Clifton's
"Finger Dancing" as well as some others at
http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm

As with any pain, see a medical professional if it persists. Remember the R.I.C.E. acroynym for injury: Rest, Ice, Compress, Elevate.

Laymans opinion (I'm not a medical professional)
Inside elbow joint pain can be a sign that you have stressed your flexor muscles in your forearm, this chain starts in the fingers, runs up your forearm and connects at that boney point on the inside of your elbow. The laymans term for that is Golfers Elbow. This can be cumulative over time, or sudden as in blowing it out.
If that is what it is, this suggests possible excess grip pressure, using lift, too much bent elbow, too much weight, too much muscle involvement.
As you get farther from the thumb the fingers tend to get a bit weaker, with the ring finger being the most vulnerable.
My advice when trying new things is to divide and conquer (isolate) the process before integrating into your game. This can involve one or more of these: a lighter ball (drill up a light plastic ball for that purpose, MARK THE APP (video record yourself), a wrist support (multi wrist positioners have been used by some pros to learn positions), 1 step drill, practice at home (Eric, MegaMav has a post of a video of himself working on release).
Being able to make a radical release change normally takes time and effort.
Don Johnson commented in his video that when he illustrated and taught the Urethane Release, one person out of 300 (memory) got it from the get go.
Your extremities, fingers, hands, up the chain are usually weaker than the larger muscles and muscle groups.

Pain as you described needs to be heeded as a shot over the bow.
As one who has injured himself via release experimentation, I caution you.
I missed 1 year, came back, was not ready, missed 6 months.
Find a good instructor, it will be your very best bowling investment ever.
Think about how much time and money you've already invested, think about how you'd miss bowling if you had to sit it out.
Just sayin'

P.S. warm up and cool down routines are very important. Develop functional strength, mobility and flexibility. Enjoy this sport for your entire life.

Good luck, good health, good bowling!!!

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http://mwkworks.com/desiderata.html

"Democracy dies in darkness"
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E-books are convenient, but easily changed or removed.
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Last edited by kajmk on Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:41 pm Post Number: #23 Post
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kajmk wrote:

Rob's point about working with an instructor is a very good one.

Finger position as you described is a fine tuning technique, see Ron Clifton's
"Finger Dancing" as well as some others at
http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm

As with any pain, see a medical professional if it persists. Remember the R.I.C.E. acroynym for injury: Rest, Ice, Compress, Elevate.

Laymans opinion (I'm not a medical professional)
Inside elbow joint pain can be a sign that you have stressed your flexor muscles in your forearm, this chain starts in the fingers, runs up your forearm and connects at that boney point on the inside of your elbow. The laymans term for that is Golfers Elbow.
If that is what it is, this suggests possible excess grip pressure, using lift, too much bent elbow, too much weight, too much muscle involvement.
As you get farther from the thumb the fingers tend to get a bit weaker, with the ring finger being the most vulnerable.
My advice when trying new things is to divide and conquer (isolate) the process before integrating into your game. This can involve one of more: a lighter ball (drill up a light plastic ball for that purpose, MARK THE APP (video record yourself), a wrist support (multi wrist positioners have been used by some pros to learn positions), 1 step drill, practice at home (Eric, MegaMav has a post of a video of himself working on release).
Being able to make a radical release change normally takes time and effort.
Don Johnson commented in his video that when he illustrated and taught the Urethane Release, one person out of 300 (memory) got it from the get go.
Your extremities, fingers, hands, up the chain are usually weaker than the larger muscles and muscle groups.

Pain as you described needs to be heeded as a shot over the bow.
As one who has injured himself via release experimentation, I caution you.
I missed 1 year, came back, was not ready, missed 6 months.
Find a good instructor, it will be your very best bowling investment ever.
Think about how much time and money you've already invested, think about how you'd miss bowling if you had to sit it out.
Just sayin'

Good luck, good health, good bowling!!!


Thank you for the advice. Like I said, I don't really use that release anymore for the variety of reasons I mentioned. Hopefully more concrete suggestions and answers can be found when I post video

_________________
Right Handed, 18 -19 mph off hand (16 - 17 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 220+


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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:32 am Post Number: #24 Post
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Here is a video of some shots from over the weekend.


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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:26 am Post Number: #25 Post
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coke can grip test pics

Image

Image

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Book Average 220+


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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:03 pm Post Number: #26 Post
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According to Mo's fitting instructions it looks like 3/8 positive (right) thumb pitch to me. Looks like a large fingers clt angle too but need to verify it with thumb in a ball with correct thumb pitches and fingers laying over holes. In the video you are releasing off the side of the ball and axis rotation looks average to high. Could you put a piece of white tape in your PAP and video again, the ball is quite dark and it's a bit difficult to see the axis rotating.


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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:12 pm Post Number: #27 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
According to Mo's fitting instructions it looks like 3/8 positive (right) thumb pitch to me. Looks like a large fingers clt angle too but need to verify it with thumb in a ball with correct thumb pitches and fingers laying over holes. In the video you are releasing off the side of the ball and axis rotation looks average to high. Could you put a piece of white tape in your PAP and video again, the ball is quite dark and it's a bit difficult to see the axis rotating.


The video isn't the best. I didn't really have a good area to set up the camera.

On a majority of the shots I was actually concentrating on holding the ball on the side and releasing off the side. I seem to be more accurate and consistent when I hold release the ball like that even though I don't get quite the number of revs I would like. I do release the the ball a couple of different ways. One I get more inside for when I need more revs, but I am not as accurate.


A point about the CLT. I line my inserts down the center T-line. I've tried CLT drillings and things like the ADT where your hand is more set up like it is just laying on the ball, and they don't seem to work. During the swing and release my hand (or the ball) shifts so that my hand and fingers are lined up down the T line. Not sure if my thumb joint is just too flexible and too weak to hold the weight of the ball in position. My hand also rotates on the back swing so that is part of the ball shifting. That is actually due to my shoulder. I've tried to keep my hand behind the ball through the backswing and my shoulder and arm joints just don't work that way. I would have to contort my elbow and shoulder into a very odd position at the start up to be able to do it..

I do have a very large CLT angle though. My thumb joint is pretty offset from my hand. My CLT can be 30 deg or higher.

I will try to get some better videos when I have someone that can hold the camera and film.

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:27 pm Post Number: #28 Post
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Your hand is on the wrong side of the ball on the uptake and how you place the ball down on the lane I suspect your thumbhole is too big.

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:38 pm Post Number: #29 Post
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J, if possible, please try to have your entire body, top of swing to feet in the picture frame.

Two quick comments: you would benefit from a change in your footwork.
See week #3 in this set
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ence_video
This video set has some very good drills. I suggest you study them, compare your videos (side and rear) to what you see in the Kegel set.

You rotate your hand to the outside of the ball in the downswing, look at how much ball there is between your hand and leg.
When you video yourself, look at where the ball goes in your back swing.

Generally, if there is extraneous movement of motion, the reason and effects need to be reviewed.

Cheerio!

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http://mwkworks.com/desiderata.html

"Democracy dies in darkness"
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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:41 pm Post Number: #30 Post
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kajmk wrote:
J, if possible, please try to have your entire body, top of swing to feet in the picture frame.

Two quick comments: you would benefit from a change in your footwork.
See week #3 in this set
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ence_video
This video set has some very good drills. I suggest you study them, compare your videos (side and rear) to what you see in the Kegel set.

You rotate your hand to the outside of the ball in the downswing, look at how much ball there is between your hand and leg.
When you video yourself, look at where the ball goes in your back swing.

Generally, if there is extraneous movement of motion, the reason and effects need to be reviewed.

Cheerio!


Thank you for the information. I will check out the link.

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Book Average 220+


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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:20 pm Post Number: #31 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Your hand is on the wrong side of the ball on the uptake and how you place the ball down on the lane I suspect your thumbhole is too big.


Can you clarify what you mean by uptake? My thumb is pretty snug with my thumb in the hole. The top part of the whole is a little bigger so that my thumb will release clean when it comes out. I will move my tape up higher in the hole and see if that helps in the next set of videos.

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:22 pm Post Number: #32 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
According to Mo's fitting instructions it looks like 3/8 positive (right) thumb pitch to me.


If you draw a line down my thumb and off the end of the nail, the arrow points well past my pinky. that is why I go with 3/4 right in my thumb.

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:40 pm Post Number: #33 Post
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J_w73 wrote:
Can you clarify what you mean by uptake?


When you take the ball up, upswing.

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:01 am Post Number: #34 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

When you take the ball up, upswing.


I tried to mess around with my back swing the last couple of days. I tried to focus on rotating the ball the other way from the way it is in the video. The way my hand rotates in the video is just a product of my shoulder and elbow joint. If I keep my elbow behind the ball, my hand naturally rotates so the ball is on the inside of my hand. Not sure the best way to combat this. Seems I have to orient my shoulder, elbow, and wrist in a weird contortion so that I am able to rotate the opposite way.

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:37 pm Post Number: #35 Post
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J_w73 wrote:

I tried to mess around with my back swing the last couple of days. I tried to focus on rotating the ball the other way from the way it is in the video. The way my hand rotates in the video is just a product of my shoulder and elbow joint. If I keep my elbow behind the ball, my hand naturally rotates so the ball is on the inside of my hand. Not sure the best way to combat this. Seems I have to orient my shoulder, elbow, and wrist in a weird contortion so that I am able to rotate the opposite way.


Bowling isnt completely natural in physical motion, so you have to fight to keep your elbow behind the ball until it passes your leg on the downswing.

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:07 pm Post Number: #36 Post
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I suspect your head is not over the ball at release, having the ball under your head along the whole swing/approach greatly facilitates keeping your hand inside and behind the ball in a powerful position. Rolling backup balls as a drill helps practice the feel of keeping hand and elbow in.


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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:26 pm Post Number: #37 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
I suspect your head is not over the ball at release, having the ball under your head along the whole swing/approach greatly facilitates keeping your hand inside and behind the ball in a powerful position. Rolling backup balls as a drill helps practice the feel of keeping hand and elbow in.


I will include video with my whole body and backswing the next time I take int.

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:02 am Post Number: #38 Post
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Here's something you can practice at home. Grab a plastic gallon container of milk or water, ideally about 3/4 full. Stand in front of a full length mirror and swing the container like you would swing a bowling ball. As the container swings back, right about when a ball would get to the bottom of the swing, turn your hand outward. In other words, the base of your thumb will be pointing toward 3 o'clock.

The key to this drill, let gravity do all of the work. When done correctly, the container will swing freely and the liquid will remain stable throughout the swing.


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