Need more rotation

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J_w73
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Re: Need more rotation

Post by J_w73 »

kajmk wrote:

It would seem that analysis of the physical game would be in order. That would also involve analysis of the grip.
If your game can be improved via technique, I think that would be a good step.
So I messed around with my release last night. I started holding the ball so my index finger was right behind the ball and pointing down at the bottom of my swing. This allowed me to get more rotation, more rpm, more hook, and more continuation... Only problem, is it reminded me why I don't throw the ball like that. Because I get a callous on the tip of my finger and it is sometimes painful it that finger after releasing it that was over time. I also get pain on my inside elbow joint because that is not the natural position my shoulder, arm, wrist, and hand want to be in.

I also feel that I am not as accurate and consistent with that release style
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
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Re: Need more rotation

Post by kajmk »

J_w73 wrote:
So I messed around with my release last night. I started holding the ball so my index finger was right behind the ball and pointing down at the bottom of my swing. This allowed me to get more rotation, more rpm, more hook, and more continuation... Only problem, is it reminded me why I don't throw the ball like that. Because I get a callous on the tip of my finger and it is sometimes painful it that finger after releasing it that was over time. I also get pain on my inside elbow joint because that is not the natural position my shoulder, arm, wrist, and hand want to be in.

I also feel that I am not as accurate and consistent with that release style
Rob's point about working with an instructor is a very good one.

Finger position as you described is a fine tuning technique, see Ron Clifton's
"Finger Dancing" as well as some others at
http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As with any pain, see a medical professional if it persists. Remember the R.I.C.E. acroynym for injury: Rest, Ice, Compress, Elevate.

Laymans opinion (I'm not a medical professional)
Inside elbow joint pain can be a sign that you have stressed your flexor muscles in your forearm, this chain starts in the fingers, runs up your forearm and connects at that boney point on the inside of your elbow. The laymans term for that is Golfers Elbow. This can be cumulative over time, or sudden as in blowing it out.
If that is what it is, this suggests possible excess grip pressure, using lift, too much bent elbow, too much weight, too much muscle involvement.
As you get farther from the thumb the fingers tend to get a bit weaker, with the ring finger being the most vulnerable.
My advice when trying new things is to divide and conquer (isolate) the process before integrating into your game. This can involve one or more of these: a lighter ball (drill up a light plastic ball for that purpose, MARK THE APP (video record yourself), a wrist support (multi wrist positioners have been used by some pros to learn positions), 1 step drill, practice at home (Eric, MegaMav has a post of a video of himself working on release).
Being able to make a radical release change normally takes time and effort.
Don Johnson commented in his video that when he illustrated and taught the Urethane Release, one person out of 300 (memory) got it from the get go.
Your extremities, fingers, hands, up the chain are usually weaker than the larger muscles and muscle groups.

Pain as you described needs to be heeded as a shot over the bow.
As one who has injured himself via release experimentation, I caution you.
I missed 1 year, came back, was not ready, missed 6 months.
Find a good instructor, it will be your very best bowling investment ever.
Think about how much time and money you've already invested, think about how you'd miss bowling if you had to sit it out.
Just sayin'

P.S. warm up and cool down routines are very important. Develop functional strength, mobility and flexibility. Enjoy this sport for your entire life.

Good luck, good health, good bowling!!!
Last edited by kajmk on August 17th, 2017, 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
J_w73
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Posts: 915
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
THS Average: 210
Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17 mph
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 45+
Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
Location: Northern California

Re: Need more rotation

Post by J_w73 »

kajmk wrote:
Rob's point about working with an instructor is a very good one.

Finger position as you described is a fine tuning technique, see Ron Clifton's
"Finger Dancing" as well as some others at
http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As with any pain, see a medical professional if it persists. Remember the R.I.C.E. acroynym for injury: Rest, Ice, Compress, Elevate.

Laymans opinion (I'm not a medical professional)
Inside elbow joint pain can be a sign that you have stressed your flexor muscles in your forearm, this chain starts in the fingers, runs up your forearm and connects at that boney point on the inside of your elbow. The laymans term for that is Golfers Elbow.
If that is what it is, this suggests possible excess grip pressure, using lift, too much bent elbow, too much weight, too much muscle involvement.
As you get farther from the thumb the fingers tend to get a bit weaker, with the ring finger being the most vulnerable.
My advice when trying new things is to divide and conquer (isolate) the process before integrating into your game. This can involve one of more: a lighter ball (drill up a light plastic ball for that purpose, MARK THE APP (video record yourself), a wrist support (multi wrist positioners have been used by some pros to learn positions), 1 step drill, practice at home (Eric, MegaMav has a post of a video of himself working on release).
Being able to make a radical release change normally takes time and effort.
Don Johnson commented in his video that when he illustrated and taught the Urethane Release, one person out of 300 (memory) got it from the get go.
Your extremities, fingers, hands, up the chain are usually weaker than the larger muscles and muscle groups.

Pain as you described needs to be heeded as a shot over the bow.
As one who has injured himself via release experimentation, I caution you.
I missed 1 year, came back, was not ready, missed 6 months.
Find a good instructor, it will be your very best bowling investment ever.
Think about how much time and money you've already invested, think about how you'd miss bowling if you had to sit it out.
Just sayin'

Good luck, good health, good bowling!!!
Thank you for the advice. Like I said, I don't really use that release anymore for the variety of reasons I mentioned. Hopefully more concrete suggestions and answers can be found when I post video
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
J_w73
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Posts: 915
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
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Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17 mph
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 45+
Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
Location: Northern California

Re: Need more rotation

Post by J_w73 »

Here is a video of some shots from over the weekend.

[youtube][/youtube]
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
J_w73
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Posts: 915
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
THS Average: 210
Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17 mph
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 45+
Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
Location: Northern California

Re: Need more rotation

Post by J_w73 »

coke can grip test pics

Image

Image
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
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Re: Need more rotation

Post by TonyPR »

According to Mo's fitting instructions it looks like 3/8 positive (right) thumb pitch to me. Looks like a large fingers clt angle too but need to verify it with thumb in a ball with correct thumb pitches and fingers laying over holes. In the video you are releasing off the side of the ball and axis rotation looks average to high. Could you put a piece of white tape in your PAP and video again, the ball is quite dark and it's a bit difficult to see the axis rotating.
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J_w73
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Posts: 915
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
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Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17 mph
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 45+
Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
Location: Northern California

Re: Need more rotation

Post by J_w73 »

TonyPR wrote:According to Mo's fitting instructions it looks like 3/8 positive (right) thumb pitch to me. Looks like a large fingers clt angle too but need to verify it with thumb in a ball with correct thumb pitches and fingers laying over holes. In the video you are releasing off the side of the ball and axis rotation looks average to high. Could you put a piece of white tape in your PAP and video again, the ball is quite dark and it's a bit difficult to see the axis rotating.
The video isn't the best. I didn't really have a good area to set up the camera.

On a majority of the shots I was actually concentrating on holding the ball on the side and releasing off the side. I seem to be more accurate and consistent when I hold release the ball like that even though I don't get quite the number of revs I would like. I do release the the ball a couple of different ways. One I get more inside for when I need more revs, but I am not as accurate.


A point about the CLT. I line my inserts down the center T-line. I've tried CLT drillings and things like the ADT where your hand is more set up like it is just laying on the ball, and they don't seem to work. During the swing and release my hand (or the ball) shifts so that my hand and fingers are lined up down the T line. Not sure if my thumb joint is just too flexible and too weak to hold the weight of the ball in position. My hand also rotates on the back swing so that is part of the ball shifting. That is actually due to my shoulder. I've tried to keep my hand behind the ball through the backswing and my shoulder and arm joints just don't work that way. I would have to contort my elbow and shoulder into a very odd position at the start up to be able to do it..

I do have a very large CLT angle though. My thumb joint is pretty offset from my hand. My CLT can be 30 deg or higher.

I will try to get some better videos when I have someone that can hold the camera and film.
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
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Re: Need more rotation

Post by MegaMav »

Your hand is on the wrong side of the ball on the uptake and how you place the ball down on the lane I suspect your thumbhole is too big.
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Re: Need more rotation

Post by kajmk »

J, if possible, please try to have your entire body, top of swing to feet in the picture frame.

Two quick comments: you would benefit from a change in your footwork.
See week #3 in this set
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ence_video" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This video set has some very good drills. I suggest you study them, compare your videos (side and rear) to what you see in the Kegel set.

You rotate your hand to the outside of the ball in the downswing, look at how much ball there is between your hand and leg.
When you video yourself, look at where the ball goes in your back swing.

Generally, if there is extraneous movement of motion, the reason and effects need to be reviewed.

Cheerio!
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

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J_w73
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Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
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Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17 mph
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 45+
Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
Location: Northern California

Re: Need more rotation

Post by J_w73 »

kajmk wrote:J, if possible, please try to have your entire body, top of swing to feet in the picture frame.

Two quick comments: you would benefit from a change in your footwork.
See week #3 in this set
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ence_video" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This video set has some very good drills. I suggest you study them, compare your videos (side and rear) to what you see in the Kegel set.

You rotate your hand to the outside of the ball in the downswing, look at how much ball there is between your hand and leg.
When you video yourself, look at where the ball goes in your back swing.

Generally, if there is extraneous movement of motion, the reason and effects need to be reviewed.

Cheerio!
Thank you for the information. I will check out the link.
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
J_w73
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Posts: 915
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
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Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17 mph
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 45+
Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
Location: Northern California

Re: Need more rotation

Post by J_w73 »

MegaMav wrote:Your hand is on the wrong side of the ball on the uptake and how you place the ball down on the lane I suspect your thumbhole is too big.
Can you clarify what you mean by uptake? My thumb is pretty snug with my thumb in the hole. The top part of the whole is a little bigger so that my thumb will release clean when it comes out. I will move my tape up higher in the hole and see if that helps in the next set of videos.
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
Book Average 210+
J_w73
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Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
Speed: 17 mph
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Axis Rotation: 45+
Heavy Oil Ball: Idol, Show-off
Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
Location: Northern California

Re: Need more rotation

Post by J_w73 »

TonyPR wrote:According to Mo's fitting instructions it looks like 3/8 positive (right) thumb pitch to me.
If you draw a line down my thumb and off the end of the nail, the arrow points well past my pinky. that is why I go with 3/4 right in my thumb.
Right Handed, 16-17 mph off hand (14 -15 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
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Re: Need more rotation

Post by MegaMav »

J_w73 wrote:Can you clarify what you mean by uptake?
When you take the ball up, upswing.
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Re: Need more rotation

Post by J_w73 »

MegaMav wrote:
When you take the ball up, upswing.
I tried to mess around with my back swing the last couple of days. I tried to focus on rotating the ball the other way from the way it is in the video. The way my hand rotates in the video is just a product of my shoulder and elbow joint. If I keep my elbow behind the ball, my hand naturally rotates so the ball is on the inside of my hand. Not sure the best way to combat this. Seems I have to orient my shoulder, elbow, and wrist in a weird contortion so that I am able to rotate the opposite way.
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Re: Need more rotation

Post by MegaMav »

J_w73 wrote:
I tried to mess around with my back swing the last couple of days. I tried to focus on rotating the ball the other way from the way it is in the video. The way my hand rotates in the video is just a product of my shoulder and elbow joint. If I keep my elbow behind the ball, my hand naturally rotates so the ball is on the inside of my hand. Not sure the best way to combat this. Seems I have to orient my shoulder, elbow, and wrist in a weird contortion so that I am able to rotate the opposite way.
Bowling isnt completely natural in physical motion, so you have to fight to keep your elbow behind the ball until it passes your leg on the downswing.
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Re: Need more rotation

Post by TonyPR »

I suspect your head is not over the ball at release, having the ball under your head along the whole swing/approach greatly facilitates keeping your hand inside and behind the ball in a powerful position. Rolling backup balls as a drill helps practice the feel of keeping hand and elbow in.
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J_w73
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Posts: 915
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 12:53 am
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Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4" over 1/4" up
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Axis Tilt: 17
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Medium Oil Ball: Venom Shock, Rhodman,
Light Oil Ball: Phobia, White Hot Badger
Location: Northern California

Re: Need more rotation

Post by J_w73 »

TonyPR wrote:I suspect your head is not over the ball at release, having the ball under your head along the whole swing/approach greatly facilitates keeping your hand inside and behind the ball in a powerful position. Rolling backup balls as a drill helps practice the feel of keeping hand and elbow in.
I will include video with my whole body and backswing the next time I take int.
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Re: Need more rotation

Post by TomaHawk »

Here's something you can practice at home. Grab a plastic gallon container of milk or water, ideally about 3/4 full. Stand in front of a full length mirror and swing the container like you would swing a bowling ball. As the container swings back, right about when a ball would get to the bottom of the swing, turn your hand outward. In other words, the base of your thumb will be pointing toward 3 o'clock.

The key to this drill, let gravity do all of the work. When done correctly, the container will swing freely and the liquid will remain stable throughout the swing.
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Re: Need more rotation

Post by J_w73 »

I tried a bunch of stuff and finally decided to change my pitches to 1/8 forward in both fingers and I reduced the span a bit on my ring finger. I think this change is really helping. I noticed in some video that I started turning the ball really early and before the ball got to the bottom of the swing. I think I was doing this because I felt the ball was coming off my hand, so I had to turn the ball if I wanted to get any hand in it. Now with the new pitches I can wait on the ball and turn it at the bottom and really come through the shot. I feel I can be aggressive and get plenty of hand where the ball will still hook. I feel that this also relieved some of the pressure on my index finger. Hopefully I don't develop any other issues because of the pitch changes.
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Re: Need more rotation

Post by pjape »

Sorry if this type of thing was already mentioned.

My former anchor has a very unusual grip that he got from Mo years ago when he was about 12. My PSO told me about it, and early in the season I looked at his ball. What's unusual is the ring finger is well above the index finger; it looks like the opposite of a Sarge Easter grip. He said this setup helps him apply more rotation, and I can tell you he can bet a bunch. There is nobody else in my league who can play as deep, get it wide, and it still gets back to the pocket. He's not bowling as well this year (new baby at home), but last year he ended at 239.

Unfortunately, I have no idea how his ball is drilled as far as pitches, etc. If you want, I can see if he has that information so I could pass on to you.
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