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 Post subject: Need more rotation
 Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:51 am Post Number: #1 Post
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My current grip:
RING: 4 3/4 span, 0 R/L, 1/8 REVERSE
RINGER: 4 3/4 span, 3/4 R, 1/8 REVERSE
THUMB: 3/16 REVERSE, 3/4 RIGHT

What can I do with my grip to help me get more rotation on the ball? If I throw the ball harder the ball comes off my hand too fast and I can't get around the ball. Right now I feel I need to have really slow ball speed to get the rotation I need. I feel I need a bit more speed, but I can't get the rotation when I speed up.

My thumb hole is pretty snug. I have tried to go more forward in the thumb and I just can't clear the thumb going any more forward than 3/16 reverse in the thumb.

Any suggestions?

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Right Handed, 18 -19 mph off hand (16 - 17 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:08 am Post Number: #2 Post
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Are you right or left handed? Seems like a lot of lateral pitch on your thumb. I would think that is the reason why you can't clear the thumb with less reverse pitch.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong!

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:04 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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Lledsmarttam wrote:
Are you right or left handed? Seems like a lot of lateral pitch on your thumb. I would think that is the reason why you can't clear the thumb with less reverse pitch.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong!


Right handed. It has been established by Mo that I have a mutant hand and joints. The right pitch in my thumb is the only thing that has allowed me to get to 3/16 reverse. Before I went that far right, all drillers just put me at 0 or 1/8 right and I would always need 3/8 or more reverse.. and a ton of bevel.

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:52 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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Are you sure it's not left pitch on thumb? Right pitch would make it very awkward in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:09 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Lledsmarttam wrote:
Are you sure it's not left pitch on thumb? Right pitch would make it very awkward in my opinion.


right handed.. 3/4" right pitch in the thumb. I know it is a lot. I've tried left pitch. Can't get out of the ball without my thumb hurting. I've tried everything, believe me. 3/4 right is the only pitch that allows me to use barely any bevel and get out of the thumb clean. I also have very little wear on my thumb as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:55 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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Ok just in my short experience drilling left pitch in thumb is more "normal". That is all I meant. Your hand must be mutant then?

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:01 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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You say you want more rotation... by more rotation, do you mean you want more axis rotation or more rpms?

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:20 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
You say you want more rotation... by more rotation, do you mean you want more axis rotation or more rpms?


More axis rotation. The ball comes off my fingers before I have a chance to get around the ball as much as I would like to. I use fairly loose inserts as well.

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Right Handed, 18 -19 mph off hand (16 - 17 mph on Qubica reading) ,350 rpm,PAP 4 3/4 x 1/4 up, 17 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:29 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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With that amount of right pitch on the thumb, there´s no wonder you cannot turn your hand to release the ball. Wouldn´t it be possible that there´s a mistake and it should be 3/4 left?

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:12 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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2y2 wrote:
With that amount of right pitch on the thumb, there´s no wonder you cannot turn your hand to release the ball. Wouldn´t it be possible that there´s a mistake and it should be 3/4 left?


No...thumb slides right in. The thumb pitch isn't preventing me from turning the ball. No hanging or pain.. I've tried left pitch, ball felt like a glove just sitting on my hand.. but after a few frames there was a lot of pain at the base of my thumb. Every shot would tweak my thumb, like the ball was rotating a different way than the way my thumb wanted to come out.

Lets assume I was 0 , 1/8 reverse in middle, 3/4 right, 1/8 reverse in ring, and 0 and 3/16 reverse in the thumb.. Are there any adjustment that could be made to the grip to help with getting more axis rotation?

I know the modern game is more on the inside of the ball, but would pitching all the fingers left put the fingers on the right side of the ball and create more axis rotation when coming up and through the ball?

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:36 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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In my opinion axis rotation is controlled by the hand and wrist. It is unique for everyone. I am almost 90*. Not because I want to be but because that is my natural release. I don't believe changing finger or thumb pitches would help you here. I believe with that drastic of right pitch on thumb is the reason you hang up for sure!!

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:47 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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Lledsmarttam wrote:
In my opinion axis rotation is controlled by the hand and wrist. It is unique for everyone. I am almost 90*. Not because I want to be but because that is my natural release. I don't believe changing finger or thumb pitches would help you here. I believe with that drastic of right pitch on thumb is the reason you hang up for sure!!


Thank you for your opinion. I can hold my hand on the side of the ball and get out fine with more axis rotation, but then I lose my RPMs.

Been looking for a driller for more than 5 years that could fit me so I could release the ball cleanly. They all just fit me at 0 or 1/8 right and then I need a ton of bevel at the front left edge and reverse to get out. This is what I have come up with after setting up a makeshift press and drilling dozens and dozens of holes in balls to see what worked. I have shown many people my pitches and they say there will be no way that you can get out of the ball. I get out fine, can roll end over end, can throw a back up ball, can rotate it pretty good.. I just need a bit more to get the ball to do what I need to do sometimes..

My reasoning for mentioning about hanging up, was that when I say the ball comes off my hand too quickly, most people say to go more forward in the thumb. I have tried this and that is when I can't get out of the ball. At my current pitch and can get out fine. I also use a very tight thumb.

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Book Average 220+


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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:09 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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J_w73 wrote:
I know the modern game is more on the inside of the ball, but would pitching all the fingers left put the fingers on the right side of the ball and create more axis rotation when coming up and through the ball?

Correct it is the Right side of the ball. Now hold the ball at the bottom of your swing and the Right side is the Correct side to have your hand on the inside of the ball.

I have a suggestion, post video in the Coaching section. viewforum.php?f=4
There may be something in your timing when rolling it faster that doesn't allow you to stay in the ball long enough to impart Rotation at release. Or they may have an idea on how to gain more speed with your slower higher rotation release.

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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:17 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Correct it is the Right side of the ball. Now hold the ball at the bottom of your swing and the Right side is the Correct side to have your hand on the inside of the ball.

I have a suggestion, post video in the Coaching section. viewforum.php?f=4
There may be something in your timing when rolling it faster that doesn't allow you to stay in the ball long enough to impart Rotation at release. Or they may have an idea on how to gain more speed with your slower higher rotation release.


I just need a bit more to get the ball to do what I need to do sometimes..

Eric
If I am understanding correctly with his current delivery all is fine. He says he is currently at 45-60 rotation and all is good. Wouldn't layouts that burn off rotation slower be a good starting point? It was stated that trying to get more rotation to get something else out of the ball. Wouldn't it be easier to give a layout that works with current delivery?

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Speed-16mph on monitor
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Rotation-70*-90*


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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:25 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Correct it is the Right side of the ball. Now hold the ball at the bottom of your swing and the Right side is the Correct side to have your hand on the inside of the ball.

I have a suggestion, post video in the Coaching section. viewforum.php?f=4
There may be something in your timing when rolling it faster that doesn't allow you to stay in the ball long enough to impart Rotation at release. Or they may have an idea on how to gain more speed with your slower higher rotation release.


With the ball at the bottom of the swing, shouldn't the finger be on the left side of the ball to be on the inside of the ball?

I will post a video

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Book Average 220+


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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:37 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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The ball is turned over when you hold it at the bottom, thumb up. What is now the left side is the Correct side that was the right side when looking at it with the thumb down.

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:15 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
The ball is turned over when you hold it at the bottom, thumb up. What is now the left side is the Correct side that was the right side when looking at it with the thumb down.


ok.. I agree and we are on the same page. If I change my fingers to 3/4 left in the middle finger and 0 in the ring finger that would pitch them left looking at the ball with my thumb down. Then at the bottom of the swing, from behind, the fingers would be on the right side of the ball, as far as where they put force on the ball.. the force would be on the right side of the midline if you cut the ball down the middle. My ring would be neutral at the center of the ball and my middle would be on the right hemisphere. So without rotating my hand, if I just came up straight through the ball, my middle finger would impart a natural rotation to the ball.

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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:56 am Post Number: #18 Post
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I second what Eric says, post rear, side and release zoom videos so Jim and I can have a look. Also, post photos of a cylinder test so we can see where your thumb points as you wrap your hand around an appropriate size can or cylinder. By the way, 45-60 AR is pretty good, if you need to play a deep inside line maybe ball selection and layout can help.

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RPMs - 375-420
Speed - 15 monitor
Axis Tilt - 3* (yikes!!!)
Axis Rotation - depends on what I want the ball to do


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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:46 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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With all of the posts on this thread, I'm totally amazed that no-one has said what to me is obvious: see a qualified coach who can help you to increase your axis tilt without changing a grip that works for you. Not everything in bowling can be addressed by making changes to a bowling ball.


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 Post subject: Re: Need more rotation
 Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:23 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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RobMautner wrote:
With all of the posts on this thread, I'm totally amazed that no-one has said what to me is obvious: see a qualified coach who can help you to increase your axis tilt without changing a grip that works for you. Not everything in bowling can be addressed by making changes to a bowling ball.



It would seem that analysis of the physical game would be in order. That would also involve analysis of the grip.
If your game can be improved via technique, I think that would be a good step.

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