What does excessive left thumb pitch do for a rightie?

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JJakobsen
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What does excessive left thumb pitch do for a rightie?

Post by JJakobsen »

What are the exact effects on release and roll? I have been bowling with Sarge easter with a bit of left thumb pitch and finger pitch the last two years now. I tried ADT, and if I ignore the intense shooting pain in my ring finger, I notice I have to get my whole hand around the ball more or the thumb won't clear. Result in roll is a bit more axis tilt, and a track that's a lot closer to the holes than the Sarge Easter.

My Sarge Easter PAP is around 3 right, 2 up, which is a rather high PAP, but also I got close to 0 axis tilt, I can even get negative axis tilt while not rolling between fingers and thumb or on the right side of them.

I am considering using my new ADT drilling with Sarge Easter ring finger instead, to get my PAP down and to the right. I struggle with a lot of drillings tracking over thumb, and if not, the bow tie is so low down it tracks over any balance hole I have...
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Re: What does excessive left thumb pitch do for a rightie?

Post by VLe »

Take a release position. Imagine that you are releasing the ball so that your thumb is pointing straight forward. Then think about how the ball would place in your hand at that moment. With more of "left pitch" you start to have a release more like you are throwing a briefcase (keep the thumb pointing forward).

Of course this does not show you the exact way of how you are releasing the ball because the release differs by the bowler's anatomy and how you are adapted to throw the ball. It will give you some example of the effect though.

You should post some more details about your preferred grips at the moment. I know your case and I would still suggest you to try the proper wikifit, modify the spans to meet the flexibility of your fingers, play around with finger hole sizes and shape to complement your calluses etc. and start bowling with some foul line drills to get the feeling of the release and work it from there. You are already modifying and mixing fitting instructions from different approaches which could lead to defy each other purposes.
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Re: What does excessive left thumb pitch do for a rightie?

Post by stevespo »

jimmydanny wrote:I tried ADT, and if I ignore the intense shooting pain in my ring finger, I notice I have to get my whole hand around the ball more or the thumb won't clear. Result in roll is a bit more axis tilt, and a track that's a lot closer to the holes than the Sarge Easter.
Don't ignore that intense shooting pain!

ADT took me quite a few attempts to work out. My grip looks extreme, but everyone that has tried it can't believe how comfortable it is. A requirement is really getting the thumb fit correct, oval angle, etc. I have it dialed in, but I'm still tweaking it slightly and making adjustments from time to time.

Thumb - 1 1/8" left, 3/8" reverse, 40* oval angle

For me, it's done the exact opposite in terms of versatility. I have the whole range of release positions that I didn't have with a more neutral thumb. I just couldn't clear the thumb with a more conventional grip. Again, that is probably just thumb/hand anatomy at work (twice broken...).

ADT didn't seem to change my tilt or track at all, but I have seen high track "spinners" use ADT and dramatically decrease their tilt and track much closer to their finger/thumb. I'm sure it forces them to keep their hand more underneath the ball, change to wrist cup/cock, etc.

I don't know how the Sarge Easter is changing the equation, but it's adding some new variables that I am unfamiliar with.

Steve
Last edited by stevespo on May 7th, 2017, 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JJakobsen
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Re: What does excessive left thumb pitch do for a rightie?

Post by JJakobsen »

cba to quota you Steve my man, too much to cut away on the phone.

You have over 1"left pitch?!

I can tell you quickly how I felt my 3/4 lett felt like after using 0 0 thumbs for years: It dragged like a Thai man in Bangkok. When I couldn't sleep one night, I thought out a theory that I had to rotate my whole hand around before letting the thumb go, instead of just the fingers, as I do with my Sarge Easter. I basically used my thumb as the axis/pivot point to move my fingers to where I want them before release.

With ADT I couldn't do that, as my thumb was too far in and behind the ball.

Obviously with ADT, when your thumb is parallel with the lane, it is not behind it, but on the outside of the ball. That is what forced my roll to change, not the change from Sarge Easter with a 1/2 left thumb in itself, but the left pitch increase forcing my thumb to a better position after my hand coming from the inside of the ball.
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Re: What does excessive left thumb pitch do for a rightie?

Post by JJakobsen »

I can add two notes special to my case.

1: If I have T grip pitches, like 3/8 lateral finger, 0 lateral thumb, and just grip the ball and let it just hang off my hand, my hand and/or arm rotates so the fingers are on the outside of the ball, kinda where PDWs hand is at release, except broken wrist (I did this test totally relaxed to see how my hand reacted). Now, when I did the same with an ADT drilled ball, my fingers and thumb were in line parallel with the direction my body was pointing, maybe the fingers even were a bit inside of the thumb.

If this is just me or if this is a known effect of ADT or at least large lateral thumb pitch numbers, I do not know. But it is still a bit opposite, as with a 0 lateral thumb I release behind the ball and hard to the left, and I have to focus to stay on the inside with my hand. With ADT lateral thumb pitch values, my hand stays on the inside a lot easier, but I have to work and focus to get enough around the ball to get my thumb parallel to the release direction, no matter what axis rotation I give it.

2: I have 1" left pitch in my middle finger also, because of injury, and because it's like my whole palm is angled very differently to my fingers and thumb. With regular 3/8 and 0 (or there about), the innermost pinky joint (where it meets the hand) is over ONE inch from the ball surface. Using ADT and some unconventional lateral finger pitches, I thought it would be great. Thing is though, the second I lift the ball, my palm lifts away from the ball, and this happens mid-swing too, which makes the ADT pointless for me as is. The best way I can describe how it feels and looks, is that my thumb isn't in or under my hand, but very much on the side of my hand. Because of this my thumb joint is not straight (maxed) when I put my hand in my ADT ball, but straightens when lifting the ball. No matter if it is part of ADT, but for me, it sounds logical that I MUST have my thumb maxed and under my hand for my palm to stay on the ball from ball rack to release. And to add, since my whole hand angle changes, my effective lateral finger pitches changes too, towards the standard 3/8 area, making the finger holes rub the sides of my fingers.

Sorry that I suck at explaining, I wish you'd all be in my center so I could show you exactly what I mean by all this rambling.
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Re: What does excessive left thumb pitch do for a rightie?

Post by VLe »

The release when you test it like you've mentioned, no matter how relaxed you throw, will be the sum of your earlier actions and adaptation. How you place the ball to the swing, how your hand is at the top of the swing, how you are aligning your body to the swing plane etc. The best you could do to improve your game is to post a video of your shot to the coaching section of this forum to get it analyzed.

Its is not uncommon to hear a bowler saying that Adt forced him to go around the ball to release properly. Then again there is most likely something wrong with the pitches or span. If a bowler is having ADT-drilled thumb and lets say 3/8"-3/8" lateral fingers from some "old style grip" it is wrong to say that he has ADT-grip. It needs proper fitting both in fingers and thumb to really be ADT. During release thumb should clear from the hole first.

A good practise for you could be to learn to throw a proper backup ball, then youll also learn to throw a dead straight ball. This should improve your release and swing. If you are having problems to get the thumb out of the ball when throwing backup ball, you have some issues with the gripping or grip. Just my 2cents.
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Re: What does excessive left thumb pitch do for a rightie?

Post by JJakobsen »

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When I release the ball like this normally, ADT with the left pitch it brings makes my current release close to impossible for me. As I said first, with the Sarge Easter I don't release through the ball, but purely behind it. This is something that has developed over the last 5-6 years. The second I pick up my Chemical X, which had ADT, I track straight along the holes, and have a healthy 15-30 degree tilt (just from watching, not measuring. I will upload pics of how my hand is in my old grip for all to see.
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Re: What does excessive left thumb pitch do for a rightie?

Post by JJakobsen »

I have decided somewhat about what to do:
I will go for the ADT I have, measure it up again, drill it on a house ball to see the feel while in swing and so, then drill it properly.

But I will drop my ring finger to conventional Sarge Easter style to avoid the pain I have. I finally got a diagnosis on it: Calcium deposits on the ring finger tendon at the 2nd joint seen from the tip and inwards. That causes any pressure on the tip to be painful, but a little pressure while using Sarge Easter is no problem.

Seeing as I see such a big change in release and roll between the two grips I have currently, I think the full fingertip ring finger has a small role in it, but I think the even higher left pitches in thumb and middle finger also makes me able to go more to the outside of the ball before releasing, without going straight left with my hand getting that funky roll I have now on the Sarge Easter.
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