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 Post subject: Things I've already learned from my DeTerminator
 Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 9:38 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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My favorite "Original Black" Guru (65x4x40, no balance hole) has a spin time of 6.43s. Unfortunately, I had to retire it due to a large repaired crack.

A seemingly identical Guru (exact layout, static weights, w/a shallow P2) never had the same carry and the ball seemed sluggish and much less responsive. Not horrible, just not the same. Spin time on that is 9.46s. I believe it's time to plug and add a P3/3.5.

My Guru Mighty (same layout, P3) has also been a monster for me. Spin time 6.48s. Paradox #1 (same layout, P3) spin time of 6.79s. Also very dynamic and versatile and vary surface to tune reaction.

Critical Theory (65x4x40, plugged 16x) became a complete dud after last repair. I added a P3.5 and it came back to life. I plugged the P3.5 and it became tame again. Without the balance hole I could never really get it to find it's PSA. Re-drilled the P3.5 and boom! - spin time of 4.26s. It needs surface to rein it in a bit, but this ball flips hard and the carry is amazing.

Is lower spin time always better? No. The most interesting thing is that I kind of expected my favorite balls to all have lower spin times, but that's not really the case. My Hammer Arson Low Flare Solid (75x3.75x45) has no well-defined PSA. It never really ever runs true, obviously because the differential is so low to begin with. Hasn't prevented the ball from being my all around most versatile "go-to" ball.

Rotogrip Menance (40x5.5x70) spins up slowly at 14.96, but the ball has been amazing for me. My 2nd Paradox (30x5x50) also has a slower spin time of 9.83s. I run them both with a lot of surface and they hit like a truck on a wide variety of conditions. Control and carry.

I'm slowly going through my symmetrical equipment and no surprises there. Primo is amazingly strong at 75x3.75x45 and 8.41s and very versatile.

Anybody have any insights or observations they want to share? I see this as an amazing tool to troubleshoot problems and fine tune reaction, but I'm definitely just getting started with it.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Things I've already learned from my DeTerminator
 Posted: Mon May 23, 2016 11:21 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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stevespo wrote:
Anybody have any insights or observations they want to share? I see this as an amazing tool to troubleshoot problems and fine tune reaction, but I'm definitely just getting started with it.

Steve


It is an excellent tool for troubleshooting.
An easy way to display direct value to the customer with it is the ole' "I want my new ball to hook like this ball."

Find a similar cover then match spin time, it should be very close!

Tips on spin time, do not start the watch until the slow start take up completes, just either hesitate to start or shave off about .25 seconds.

For neutral point, use 4 1/8 x 4 1/8 from Low and High RG axes as thats what Mo uses for industry standard, rather than whats shown in the manual.

This tool is particularly useful for those awful Z-Spinner designs and weak asymmetrics with int diffs .010 to .016, where the PSA moves around.

Enjoy!

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 Post subject: Re: Things I've already learned from my DeTerminator
 Posted: Tue May 24, 2016 4:12 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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Thanks! I was aware of the soft start and the standard neutral point (4 1/8 x 4 1/8) from a youTube video or perhaps one of the discussion threads here.

I have no intention of developing a customer base, just want to gain more understanding. Ultimately I believe that it will help me and my friends/teammates, but I'm not doing it for financial gain.

I know the range of spin times is effectively 0 to never, and that "7 to 10 secs.= avg. spin time; <7 secs.=fast transitioning ball; >10 secs.=slow transitioning ball".

I'm curious as to what is the fastest spin time anyone has ever seen? What was the ball/layout?

Is it normal for the ball to stabilize, and then drift in/out of stability slightly? Some balls seem to do this, and other ones just lock in and never seem to waver.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Things I've already learned from my DeTerminator
 Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 12:42 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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One thing to watch out for is the roundness of the ball that you are spinning. Not all new balls are true... plugged/repaired balls especially so. I have seen balls that initially spin in the teens or higher drop to their true value (usually in the 5-10 second range) after 5 minutes on a haus resurfacer. Also be wary of repeating accurate times when the gripping holes cause skipping on the wheels, do 5 runs, toss the high and low and average the remaining 3.

Quickest I have recorded was a 15# MoRich Awesome Flip measure 3.77 seconds for a 10 spin average.

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 Post subject: Re: Things I've already learned from my DeTerminator
 Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 1:03 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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I don't like drawing arcs. So my Prosect "short-cut" for finding neutral to X, Y & Z is to bisect X & Y (use 3 3/8" from Y, as X is not always accurate as marked), mark a 90* angle and measure 2 5/8" from there to the same spot.


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 Post subject: Re: Things I've already learned from my DeTerminator
 Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 3:33 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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Thanks Ron, those tips are also very helpful.

I was wondering if slightly "out of round" or perhaps rolling over a balance/finger hole might cause a little wobble/destabilization that would influence the results. A Haus/Cook is on my list, but not happening anytime soon... Possibly a DIY effort, and I actually have some very low speed gear motors gathering dust.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Things I've already learned from my DeTerminator
 Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 8:23 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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I plugged the shallow P2 on my Guru, and drilled a 3.5" deep 13/16" P3.5. I had to create some thumb weight with a deeper ring finger to make it work, but the static weights are within 0.1 oz of the original and the spin time is now 6.61s, down from 9.46s. Compared to 6.43s on the original.

The change is reaction is amazing. Just what I wanted. I used the ball this weekend on Middle Road (challenge) and Dead Man's Curve (sport). Control in the midlane and rolled hard off the breakpoint. With the Primo and Mighty it made a formidable combination.

Attachment:
guru-before.jpg
Attachment:
guru-after.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Things I've already learned from my DeTerminator
 Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:59 am Post Number: #8 Post
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I'm curious:
What effect does a surface change have on spin times, if any?

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 Post subject: Re: Things I've already learned from my DeTerminator
 Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:09 am Post Number: #9 Post
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DarkHorse wrote:
I'm curious:
What effect does a surface change have on spin times, if any?

None. Spin time is a core property.

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 Post subject: Re: Things I've already learned from my DeTerminator
 Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:29 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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Just to clarify, my Gurus appeared "identical" to me (make/model, pin distance, CG position, static weights) but they definitely were not. Guru #1 had been plugged. Notably, a large diameter, deep IT thumb plug.

How much does plugging matter? It depends on the size/placement of the plug(s). Was the core impacted? Where are the plugs, how many, and how deep? What type of core? There was a Blueprint article/simulation that showed lots of plugging didn't make a measurable difference, but they used a generic core. I suspect it's not that simple.

Is this the type of difference that could occur when looking at new equipment and modern manufacturing tolerances? Probably not. I'd expect the same layout to produce a similar reaction on the "same" ball.

Bottom line is that a savvy PSO would have looked at the reaction of ball #2 and gone to a P3/P4. I put Guru #2 on the shelf and started rolling my Paradox instead. I felt like a change of pace, and had lots of other things to experiment with.

When I finally got around to measuring spin times, I realized how different the balls actually were. The deep P3.5 changed Guru #2 completely and my reaction is back. Shot 710 and 712 first two times out in summer league. Last night I had 43 consecutive (clean) frames with 9 count or better. Love the consistency!

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Things I've already learned from my DeTerminator
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:15 am Post Number: #11 Post
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Here's something I haven't seen yet.

Every symmetrical ball I've drilled ends up with the MB/PSA near the thumb. Not always in the same exact place, but generally pretty close to the thumbhole and typically a bit down and left.

This is a new Rack Attack Pearl with a shorter pin position that I decided to do pin up and make static legal with a deeper ring finger. I drilled a shallow 3/4" hole inside the finger hole and pitched it slightly away from the center. Only had to remove about a 1/5 oz. I didn't spin it up beforehand, and I wish I did.

Attachment:
rack-attack-pearl.jpg


Afterwards, the MB/PSA was reliably right of the thumb several inches. Anybody else seen this?

On the determinator, it doesn't ever truly stabilize. Kind of cycles in and out. Using that reference the DA is 45x5.75x30. Not what I was expecting, but we'll see how it rolls tomorrow. I was hoping to try a motion hole, so we'll see...

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Things I've already learned from my DeTerminator
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:55 am Post Number: #12 Post
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I have seen this with weak asymmetry, long spin times.
Usually reactions on the lane are inconsistent, reading early and late.
Motion Hole will increase asymmetry and the anomaly will disappear.

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 Post subject: Re: Things I've already learned from my DeTerminator
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:08 am Post Number: #13 Post
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Thanks, that's encouraging.

Would you layout the motion hole using the thumb, or the weak MB/PSA?
Would you try and strengthen the MB by perhaps drilling the ring finger a bit deeper, or drilling the middle finger as well?

I still have some finger weight that I could lose...

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Things I've already learned from my DeTerminator
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:23 am Post Number: #14 Post
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stevespo wrote:
Thanks, that's encouraging.

Would you layout the motion hole using the thumb, or the weak MB/PSA?
Would you try and strengthen the MB by perhaps drilling the ring finger a bit deeper, or drilling the middle finger as well?

I still have some finger weight that I could lose...

Steve


I have resolved this issue by just drilling the thumb hole deeper to pull the PSA back to the thumb hole and decrease the spin time. More weight taken out of the side of the core increases asymmetry.

You will likely need the finger weight for the Motion Hole.

I would make the assumption that the PSA is 6 3/4" from the Low RG Axis within 1/2" of the centerline.
It will likely end up there then move up above the thumb hole along the centerline the larger you go on the hole. Good luck, looking forward to the "after" pictures.

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 Post subject: Re: Things I've already learned from my DeTerminator
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:47 am Post Number: #15 Post
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Perfect, that makes the most sense. I'll roll it tomorrow for fun, and then drill the thumb to strengthen the PSA and get ready for the motion hole.

I spun the ball several more times, and it looks like the "average" PSA is about an inch right of the thumbhole, so I should be able to shift it left a bit and increase asymmetry no problem.

Much appreciated!

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Things I've already learned from my DeTerminator
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:50 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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stevespo wrote:
Perfect, that makes the most sense. I'll roll it tomorrow for fun, and then drill the thumb to strengthen the PSA and get ready for the motion hole.

I spun the ball several more times, and it looks like the "average" PSA is about an inch right of the thumbhole, so I should be able to shift it left a bit and increase asymmetry no problem.

Much appreciated!

Steve

When you are picking your location for the Motion Hole, check the opposite axis to see where the hole would be if it were on top of the ball. That will give you a good idea of where you are shifting the PSA. Do it before you drill the hole. The location can be somewhat flexible from what I have seen.


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 Post subject: Re: Things I've already learned from my DeTerminator
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:10 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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I appreciate the advice.

The one motion hole I did last spring (Rack Attack Solid), I had to shift slightly and pitch in order to avoid the ball track and stay legal. It looked very good at 3/4" x 4" and then lost some punch when I increased the hole diameter. May plug and return to the smaller hole.

This ball looks like the motion hole will be right on the equator, so I can easily shift a bit to make it work. Should be interesting.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Things I've already learned from my DeTerminator
 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:18 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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IIRC, My Radical fix @ 80x3.75x25 spun at ~4.xx seconds at proshop class.
PSA was at the left edge of the thumbhole.

Anyone ever try drilling thumbhole at 7/8" @ 1.5" forward x 3.5" deep along a line to the PAP, then set normal pitches, and drill 1.375" slug at 2.75" on T-Grip.
This should create asymmetry in the weightblock to the right of the thumbhole (for a righty) without an external balance hole.
Seems technically illegal, but how would it be detected?

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 Post subject: Re: Things I've already learned from my DeTerminator
 Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:25 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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snick wrote:
Seems technically illegal, but how would it be detected?


I think you're right about the illegality because you're creating an internal void. Regardless, detection would be impossible without xrays...

I drilled my Rack Attack thumb a little deeper (3/4" x 3/4"), but didn't see a noticeable change in MB/PSA. I then rolled it on Saturday and it actually looked pretty good warming up with it.

Brought it back home and drilled a 3/4" x 4" deep motion hole, 10" from the pin using a line from the MB/PSA. This really stabilized the MB/PSA and I had an average spin time of 12.24s. I'm going to roll it tonight (low volume THS) and will report back on ball reaction.

Layout now maps out at 65 x 5.75 x 25

Attachment:
rack-attack-motion-hole.jpg


Steve


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