linear Fingerpitch
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- Nsane
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linear Fingerpitch
yesterday had a discuss with a proshopguy who said drilling fingerpitches forward is mayham. What do you think about that?
I use the thumb to fingerpitch from Mo´s fittingguide. But there reverse fingers starts first with 3/8 reverse in thumb.
He called me dilettante because i use this table. All the Pro´s are using lot of reverse he said.
Thomas
I use the thumb to fingerpitch from Mo´s fittingguide. But there reverse fingers starts first with 3/8 reverse in thumb.
He called me dilettante because i use this table. All the Pro´s are using lot of reverse he said.
Thomas
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Re: linear Fingerpitch
Thomas, I have not seen Mo's fitting guide so I will not comment on it. There are several fitting methods that work and as long as you follow the rules for the method you are using you should be OK.
I am not impressed with the person who called you a dilettante, he needs to learn some basic manners to add to his knowledge of bowling. When I fit a fingertip I assess the amount of flexibility in the end of the finger, that is the knuckle nearest the fingernail. If the fingertip can bend to 90 degrees I drill 0, if it can only bend 45 degrees I drill 1/4 inch reverse, if it cannot even get to 45 degrees I might drill up to 1/2 inch reverse. If the customer insists on having forward pitch drilled in the fingertip I compensate by shortening the span. I do not change the thumb pitch because the thumb must come out of the ball first and it must not get stuck in the thumb hole.
I am not sure if you use the inch measurements for drilling in Germany or if the drills are set for metric measurements. Can you let me knoww please.
I am not impressed with the person who called you a dilettante, he needs to learn some basic manners to add to his knowledge of bowling. When I fit a fingertip I assess the amount of flexibility in the end of the finger, that is the knuckle nearest the fingernail. If the fingertip can bend to 90 degrees I drill 0, if it can only bend 45 degrees I drill 1/4 inch reverse, if it cannot even get to 45 degrees I might drill up to 1/2 inch reverse. If the customer insists on having forward pitch drilled in the fingertip I compensate by shortening the span. I do not change the thumb pitch because the thumb must come out of the ball first and it must not get stuck in the thumb hole.
I am not sure if you use the inch measurements for drilling in Germany or if the drills are set for metric measurements. Can you let me knoww please.
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Re: linear Fingerpitch
JimH - Here's a link to Mo's fitting guide for fingertip fit, if you're interested in reviewing it. The link takes you to the initial page, then click on the .pdf link under the red "A" (Adobe) to view the procedure. Go to the index page for "Fitting" to find the conventional fitting procedure. -- JohnP
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... itting.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Edit - Added link I forgot.
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... itting.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Edit - Added link I forgot.
Last edited by JohnP on March 22nd, 2016, 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Nsane
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Re: linear Fingerpitch
Thanks Jim for response.
I use Inches because prosect and spannrulers are just in inches availible. My Innovative Vac has digital scores and can handle both but i use inches as well.
For sure i check the fingerflex also and short or extend the spanns depending on fingerflex. For every 1/8 pitch i ajust 1/16 from span.
Do you get from span thumbpitch and from that numbers fingerpitches or fingers first and from that the linear thumbpich???
Because this guy said also "geting thumb from span first is bu......t too". Allways get fingerpitches from span and than the thumb.
But as you said. The thumb is much more important than fingerpitches.
Link to the fitting instructions Finttingguide
@ JohnP. I talk about fingertip drilling. The table is out of the morich fittingguide. The guide for conventional fitting came in the wiki on a rerquest from me to Mo some years ago.
Thomas
I use Inches because prosect and spannrulers are just in inches availible. My Innovative Vac has digital scores and can handle both but i use inches as well.
For sure i check the fingerflex also and short or extend the spanns depending on fingerflex. For every 1/8 pitch i ajust 1/16 from span.
Do you get from span thumbpitch and from that numbers fingerpitches or fingers first and from that the linear thumbpich???
Because this guy said also "geting thumb from span first is bu......t too". Allways get fingerpitches from span and than the thumb.
But as you said. The thumb is much more important than fingerpitches.
Link to the fitting instructions Finttingguide
@ JohnP. I talk about fingertip drilling. The table is out of the morich fittingguide. The guide for conventional fitting came in the wiki on a rerquest from me to Mo some years ago.
Thomas
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Re: linear Fingerpitch
FYI, I have found the ruler on 2 different Prosects to be ~1/8" shorter than an accurate span ruler.
I NEVER use a prosect for grip/span markup.
I NEVER use a prosect for grip/span markup.
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Re: linear Fingerpitch
Thomas, I have a chart I made which I use for the forward/reverse thumb pitch. The thumb pitch is determined from the span and flexibility of the thumb. The thumb lateral is based on my reading of the of where the thumb is when grabbing a cylinder. Once again it is something I made from a piece of plastic tube about 2 inches diameter. I do need to make adjustments to the span based on the thumb lateral. I might also make adjustments to pitches and span to alter the track, but that is fine tuning. By the way, I made these things before I ever heard of Mo Pinel and they have served me well for many years.Nsane wrote:Do you get from span thumbpitch and from that numbers fingerpitches or fingers first and from that the linear thumbpich???
The chart I made is my understanding of pitches and spans from a number of sources and courses I have taken. Some of the information was copyright when I received it so I do not think I can distribute it without the original authors permission.
Re: linear Fingerpitch
John,JohnP wrote:JimH - Here's a link to Mo's fitting guide for fingertip fit, if you're interested in reviewing it.
Thanks for the link. The chart that I referred to in my post to NSANE is remarkably similar to the chart that Mo put on his fitting guide. The span lengths and thumb pitches seem to be identical. I have added my own notes to my chart for conventional fitting and adjustments for thumb lateral. It all fits neatly on 8 1/2 by 11 (A4) paper and I laminated it to work with in the shop.
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Re: linear Fingerpitch
A lot of the information is based on Bill Taylors old fitting book. I keep my copies of the tables in a loose leaf notebook, but after several years of drilling I seldom have to refer to them. I'm not a believer in forward pitches, so I stop at 0 for both fingers and thumb - works for me and my customers. -- JohnP
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Re: linear Fingerpitch
I know a lot of "pros" and drillers are going to reverse pitch in the fingers. I also know a lot of bowlers that get a ton of revs using a lot of reverse pitch in the fingers. I know guys with 1" of reverse in the fingers and I don't know how they hold onto the ball. I tried more reverse in my fingers and I find that the ball just comes off too fast. Is that a function of my liner thumb pitch not being correct, and the ball is falling off my thumb too fast? My Dad had the same result. We tried to go more reverse in the fingers for a more relaxed grip and he too found the ball would fall off his fingers too fast. He also uses a lot tighter inserts than I do.JohnP wrote:A lot of the information is based on Bill Taylors old fitting book. I keep my copies of the tables in a loose leaf notebook, but after several years of drilling I seldom have to refer to them. I'm not a believer in forward pitches, so I stop at 0 for both fingers and thumb - works for me and my customers. -- JohnP
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Re: linear Fingerpitch
I can relax my hand more and get more on the ball with less reverse in the thumb as long as I dont try to get too much rotation and spin it. I'll hang in it if I do. I need a little more reverse in the thumb to turn my hand more. Probably due to my 3/8 right thumb pitch.J_w73 wrote:
I know a lot of "pros" and drillers are going to reverse pitch in the fingers. I also know a lot of bowlers that get a ton of revs using a lot of reverse pitch in the fingers. I know guys with 1" of reverse in the fingers and I don't know how they hold onto the ball. I tried more reverse in my fingers and I find that the ball just comes off too fast. Is that a function of my liner thumb pitch not being correct, and the ball is falling off my thumb too fast? My Dad had the same result. We tried to go more reverse in the fingers for a more relaxed grip and he too found the ball would fall off his fingers too fast. He also uses a lot tighter inserts than I do.
Re: linear Fingerpitch
AnecdotalChrisTan wrote:
Less reverse and more reverse ?????? Im confused
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Re: linear Fingerpitch
That's a lot of right pitch. Your thumb must be able to lay almost straight across your hand above the wrist. -- JohnPMegaMav wrote:
I can relax my hand more and get more on the ball with less reverse in the thumb as long as I dont try to get too much rotation and spin it. I'll hang in it if I do. I need a little more reverse in the thumb to turn my hand more. Probably due to my 3/8 right thumb pitch.
Re: linear Fingerpitch
I was taking lessons and trying to come around ball more, because has very little axis rotation. After over a week of practicing this, to no improvement, tried increasing finger pitch. Went up to almost 1/2 forward (not including grips which are pitched) and really helps me come around ball at end and have a much more relaxed grip and release as I now don't have to worry about it slipping out. Also slightly increased rev rate, and my release feels much smoother.
I've tried so many different types of drillings and have read so many forum opinions. I don't know about hard and set rules that I see at times - especially with the finger pitches. Everyone's hand and gave are different, and I think there are general guidelines to get started, but should be room for individualization.
I have no idea how other people use reverse pitch in fingers, tried that once years ago and the ball fell off my hand in back-swing.
I've tried so many different types of drillings and have read so many forum opinions. I don't know about hard and set rules that I see at times - especially with the finger pitches. Everyone's hand and gave are different, and I think there are general guidelines to get started, but should be room for individualization.
I have no idea how other people use reverse pitch in fingers, tried that once years ago and the ball fell off my hand in back-swing.
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Re: linear Fingerpitch
Hello everyone. Once I was frequenting this forum in search of my ball fitting needs. I tried and tried and tried but could not get the correct answer. I was always pointed towards Wiki and fitting guide. I do not, unfortunately have access to a Pro Shop, so I had no choice but to find answers on the Internet.
While surfing the Internet and going through YouTube videos, I came across a lot of different forums and a lot of different videos. Many people on different forums have different opinions about what's right or wrong. They all emphasize that their method is better than others. There are few very popular names who created their unique method of fitting and drilling. One is ADT created by Joe Slowinski. Another is Max Y created by Bill Hall I suppose, and so on and so forth.
What I gathered from all these resources, I applied on myself in order to achieve a comfortable fit so I could have a clean release.
Then, after struggling for a while, quite a while to be correct and many many hours spent drilling and experimenting, and what seemed like a life time trying to have a perfect fit, I came across USBC coaching videos on YouTube.
I said to myself "who's better than Coaches who train and drill for Team USA". So I started paying attention to what they were saying.
What they said was completely opposite of what is preached and taught on this forum. I don't mean to disrespect anyone here, but all these guys do is follow a set of rules by Mo Pinel. If you even as much as whisper against or question what's taught here, you're frequently laughed at or ridiculed.
What Team USA Coaches and several other Coaches they had on their videos, teach is reverse in fingers and forward in thumb. The amount of these pitches may vary, but none ever said Reverse in thumb and Forward in Fingers, ever.
Then I tried to look for Spec Sheets of Pros (PBA Champions) and guess what? What I found there was exactly what these coaches were saying all the time. Reverse in Fingers and Forward in Thumb.
So I thought I'd try that. And I did. To my surprise, many calluses on my thumb and fingers started to shrink. Pain reduced, and my Average improved.
This is coming from a person who lives far and away, who never had access to a coach or a Pro Shop Operator. Who buys his bowling equipment on line and drills it himself on a rusty old jig without any prior training whatsoever.
So to sum up. Again without disrespecting anyone, go to YouTube, type USBC Coaching Videos, watch and listen carefully, do some experimenting. I'm sure you'll get the right fit for yourself.
If you have enough resources, it'll be worth taking a trip to Kegel Training Center (meet Dell Warren there) or to ITRC (meet O'Keefe or Rod Ross, or Kim there). If you can't, then try to reach those places on the YouTube.
My thumb pitch, according to a chart I found here, had to be reverse. I tried that and I could never NOT GRAB or DROP the ball. I had pain and calluses all over the place. Ever since I went forward in the thumb, my thumb is feeling like it had died and gone to heaven.
If you just want to Bowl with pain and calluses, follow what you read here. If you want to die and go to heaven, so to speak, follow people who are training and drilling for Team USA and PBA Champions.
No disrespect to anyone here. I'm sure some people are really really good here.
Here is a little story.
People crucified Gallelio because he said that earth was round, contrary to their belief that it was flat. Later they found out that he was right. But then it was too late.
Correct yourself before it is too late.
Another story.
Someone asked someone. What's the secret of success? He replied "It's simple. See what successful people are doing and start doing that".
Follow PBA pros. Adapt the system of USBC coaches at ITRC. A place where pros go to learn.
Disclaimer: I have no Interest or get no compensation from USBC or any of the names I mentioned. I live 4000 km away. I'm just trying to help a fellow bowler.
While surfing the Internet and going through YouTube videos, I came across a lot of different forums and a lot of different videos. Many people on different forums have different opinions about what's right or wrong. They all emphasize that their method is better than others. There are few very popular names who created their unique method of fitting and drilling. One is ADT created by Joe Slowinski. Another is Max Y created by Bill Hall I suppose, and so on and so forth.
What I gathered from all these resources, I applied on myself in order to achieve a comfortable fit so I could have a clean release.
Then, after struggling for a while, quite a while to be correct and many many hours spent drilling and experimenting, and what seemed like a life time trying to have a perfect fit, I came across USBC coaching videos on YouTube.
I said to myself "who's better than Coaches who train and drill for Team USA". So I started paying attention to what they were saying.
What they said was completely opposite of what is preached and taught on this forum. I don't mean to disrespect anyone here, but all these guys do is follow a set of rules by Mo Pinel. If you even as much as whisper against or question what's taught here, you're frequently laughed at or ridiculed.
What Team USA Coaches and several other Coaches they had on their videos, teach is reverse in fingers and forward in thumb. The amount of these pitches may vary, but none ever said Reverse in thumb and Forward in Fingers, ever.
Then I tried to look for Spec Sheets of Pros (PBA Champions) and guess what? What I found there was exactly what these coaches were saying all the time. Reverse in Fingers and Forward in Thumb.
So I thought I'd try that. And I did. To my surprise, many calluses on my thumb and fingers started to shrink. Pain reduced, and my Average improved.
This is coming from a person who lives far and away, who never had access to a coach or a Pro Shop Operator. Who buys his bowling equipment on line and drills it himself on a rusty old jig without any prior training whatsoever.
So to sum up. Again without disrespecting anyone, go to YouTube, type USBC Coaching Videos, watch and listen carefully, do some experimenting. I'm sure you'll get the right fit for yourself.
If you have enough resources, it'll be worth taking a trip to Kegel Training Center (meet Dell Warren there) or to ITRC (meet O'Keefe or Rod Ross, or Kim there). If you can't, then try to reach those places on the YouTube.
My thumb pitch, according to a chart I found here, had to be reverse. I tried that and I could never NOT GRAB or DROP the ball. I had pain and calluses all over the place. Ever since I went forward in the thumb, my thumb is feeling like it had died and gone to heaven.
If you just want to Bowl with pain and calluses, follow what you read here. If you want to die and go to heaven, so to speak, follow people who are training and drilling for Team USA and PBA Champions.
No disrespect to anyone here. I'm sure some people are really really good here.
Here is a little story.
People crucified Gallelio because he said that earth was round, contrary to their belief that it was flat. Later they found out that he was right. But then it was too late.
Correct yourself before it is too late.
Another story.
Someone asked someone. What's the secret of success? He replied "It's simple. See what successful people are doing and start doing that".
Follow PBA pros. Adapt the system of USBC coaches at ITRC. A place where pros go to learn.
Disclaimer: I have no Interest or get no compensation from USBC or any of the names I mentioned. I live 4000 km away. I'm just trying to help a fellow bowler.
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Re: linear Fingerpitch
In my opinion there is more than one way to skin a cat. it has been said many times before, a good PSO will be well versed in many different fitting methods. Many contradicting the teachings of the other. I have found the wiki to be a good base fit of the relaxed finger tip grip. It had been taught for years in the HOTS classes from IBPSIA. Mo was one of the main instructors. There are tweaks to it that can help make a world of difference for bowlers too. I have used the ADT fit and other methods for bowlers with good results. It's all in what fits the customer best. I will plug an old ball for free and help walk a new customer through the fitting. I look for their feed back. Many beginners are not ready to get too detailed with these methods. I, as a PSO don't want to be talking over their heads and sounding off on them. So having a good method as a base is key. I always start with my base and move from there. This site has set out to be the most technical bowling forum available. In my opinion... It is! I try to understand the information given and apply it when I can. I will take the time to test some information for myself. That way I am not "guessing". You are not required to agree with everything on any bowling forum. If I disagree... I disagree. I will always be respectful about it. Sometimes it's just confusion with the wording, other times I just don't feel it pertains to bowlers in my area and just keep out. I don't post a lot, I just lurk and absorb what I can from all the knowledgeable people that are out there.
Re: linear Fingerpitch
Your stories are interesting, but they are only stories. PBA Bowlers make a living at bowling, most of the rest of us must earn a living at other things. That means about 50 hours a week at a minimum must be set aside to working and commuting to work. I have spoken to people who make a living at bowling and most have a lifestyle I personally would not like. Most professional bowlers will practice 100 games a week or more, Most people could not afford to bowl that many games due to time constraints or the money involved. PBA bowlerss will be away from home and family for many months a year, they must follow a strict diet and monitor what you are allowed to drink, including coffee, tea, soft drinks, and alcohol.
The people I deal with for fitting and drilling bowling balls, are generally not as physically fit as professional athletes. PBA and WPBA bowlers are professional athletes so to compare the average person to a professional athlete is unfare in my opinion. You may as well compare someone running to get a bus to Usain Bolt.
I have had customers looking to buy a specific ball because they saw some PBA bowler using one. Most PBA bowlers can modify their style and release to suit the conditions. Most of the rest of the bowlers struggle to master one style and release.
The people I deal with for fitting and drilling bowling balls, are generally not as physically fit as professional athletes. PBA and WPBA bowlers are professional athletes so to compare the average person to a professional athlete is unfare in my opinion. You may as well compare someone running to get a bus to Usain Bolt.
I have had customers looking to buy a specific ball because they saw some PBA bowler using one. Most PBA bowlers can modify their style and release to suit the conditions. Most of the rest of the bowlers struggle to master one style and release.
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Re: linear Fingerpitch
If I remember correctly ... Doesn't Chris Barnes use different pitches and spans in balls when he is trying to "circle" the lane compared to playing the "straighter"? I believe he utilizes a different fitting in his spare balls too.
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Re: linear Fingerpitch
JimH wrote: The people I deal with for fitting and drilling bowling balls, are generally not as physically fit as professional athletes. PBA and WPBA bowlers are professional athletes so to compare the average person to a professional athlete is unfare in my opinion. You may as well compare someone running to get a bus to Usain Bolt.
I have had customers looking to buy a specific ball because they saw some PBA bowler using one. Most PBA bowlers can modify their style and release to suit the conditions. Most of the rest of the bowlers struggle to master one style and release.
You are absolutely right, but I never wanted to compare a regular Joe to a top PBA Bowler. No.
All I said was that I would rather follow the advice of Coach who is worthy enough to coach Team USA. Everything about bowling has changed over so many years. The ball material to core design to cover stock to lanes to oils to machines and to how the ball is fitted.
At one time, the stretched Grip was what was hot in business. Hitting up the ball was taught a lot and was in practice a lot.
Rotating the hand counter clock wise was supposed to put rotations on the balls. Now many are rotating it Clockwise and put more rotations on the ball.
Things change and time changes. One needs to roll with it, so to speak rather than sticking hard with the old notions and tricks.
Even Fred Borden, the grandfather coach, who I believe wrote the syllabus for coaches, has changed his teachings and his ideas of Grip and how to roll the ball.
And my stories may just be stories but if one tries to pay attention, they say more than what is actually written in words.
But hey. That's just me. And I can be wrong.
Last edited by deadlyaim1 on August 23rd, 2016, 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: linear Fingerpitch
Yes Sir. Chris has 1/16 reverse in spare ball as compared to. 1/16 forward in strike ball, just to get ball off the hand quickly when shooting a spare.TheMilkMan wrote:If I remember correctly ... Doesn't Chris Barnes use different pitches and spans in balls when he is trying to "circle" the lane compared to playing the "straighter"? I believe he utilizes a different fitting in his spare balls too.
That actually proves my point that reverse in the thumb will have you drop the ball more often than not. Forward in the thumb will give you better control and keep your hand more behind the ball at the moment of release.