Is this an issue?

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JJakobsen
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Is this an issue?

Post by JJakobsen » October 11th, 2021, 10:40 pm

Okay, I'm trying to change my release, and I'm trying to get more to the inside. Now, I have realized the gym is my friend, for underarm strength, that's a work in progress.

But, my outer (pinky) side of my hand is so far from my ball, when my hand is at a proper position, my fingers is basically behind the ball. I got really stiff fingers, and to combat this a bit I've experimented with pretty high pitches, like 1" left in middle finger and thumb, I'm currently using 1" left in my middle finger and 5/16" in my thumb. Finger pitches are set by CLT as well.

The ball still keeps hanging off my outside part of my hand. In currently using sarge easter which doesn't help this, but full fingertip wasn't particularly better, and it hurts like hell due to an injury.

As I was so lucky to drop my ball mid-swing 8 years ago, I twisted my middle finger and got two bumps on the outer joint (and 7/64 larger insert for 1 year, down to 2/64 larger now), which means a normal full fingertip grip on it won't keep my finger in the ball, so I push it a bit deeper than normal, grip length is of course adjusted accordingly, but this issue with my ball being so far from my hand was a thing before that as well.

I've tried going to a pro shop and getting my grip measured, but with those, with normal pitches and normal lengths, it hurts like a motherf***er and the issue is a lot worse, so extreme pitches works ish.

You guys in the US see more of these weird cases like mine, so maybe someone here got someone that might be worth trying?

I got a pretty short span of around 4" on my middle finger, stiff (less than 90°) thumb joint, generally stiff joints all over. I'm 31 but my joints were apparently born 60 years before I was :x
68.2353°N 14.5636°E is where it happens!

weberd72
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Re: Is this an issue?

Post by weberd72 » October 14th, 2021, 12:11 am

I am a fellow injured bowler from dropping a ball mid swing and injuring my ring finger. I wanted to share with you the two resources I used to figure things out in case it can be helpful to you in any way.

For sarge easter fitting, I used BrunsNick's guide here: http://www.brunsnick.com/portfolio-item ... ioID=11080

For the pitches, I used the IBPSIA guide posted on the wiki here: http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... nformation

For my spans, I bought a span gauge and self fitted to the middle between the two finger joints. There's a USBC YouTube video out there somewhere explaining that.

After using these and some trial and error using a sacrificial ball, I was good to go. I wish you luck in getting to a pain free experience!

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Re: Is this an issue?

Post by TomaHawk » October 14th, 2021, 4:03 am

JJakobsen wrote:
October 11th, 2021, 10:40 pm
Okay, I'm trying to change my release, and I'm trying to get more to the inside. Now, I have realized the gym is my friend, for underarm strength, that's a work in progress.

I got a pretty short span of around 4" on my middle finger, stiff (less than 90°) thumb joint, generally stiff joints all over. I'm 31 but my joints were apparently born 60 years before I was :x
More likely than not, lack of flexibility is probably your main issue. When working out, include a decent amount of stretching into your workout regimen. Stretch everything from your fingers to your toes.

I've seen some very stiff hands, honestly, no one had to resort to the extreme types of pitches as you described. A little left lateral, yes. Shortening the span, definitely. Those are a couple of hints, every person is different.

In your particular case, you might start by shortening your span. The length of your span is transferring the weight of the ball forward, toward your fingertips. That's one of the reasons the inside edge of the ball is so far off the ball.

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JJakobsen
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Joined: March 10th, 2013, 9:59 pm
Sport Average: 180
Positive Axis Point: 3 1/2 right, 1 1/2 up
Speed: 15.5 downlane
Rev Rate: 450
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Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Marvel Pearl
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick Inferno
Light Oil Ball: Storm Timeless
Preferred Company: 900 Global
Location: Svolvær, Lofoten, Norway

Re: Is this an issue?

Post by JJakobsen » October 14th, 2021, 9:58 am

TomaHawk wrote:
October 14th, 2021, 4:03 am
More likely than not, lack of flexibility is probably your main issue. When working out, include a decent amount of stretching into your workout regimen. Stretch everything from your fingers to your toes.

I've seen some very stiff hands, honestly, no one had to resort to the extreme types of pitches as you described. A little left lateral, yes. Shortening the span, definitely. Those are a couple of hints, every person is different.

In your particular case, you might start by shortening your span. The length of your span is transferring the weight of the ball forward, toward your fingertips. That's one of the reasons the inside edge of the ball is so far off the ball.
I already play with semi-fingertip due to the mentioned accident with me dropping the ball twisting my outer joint.

As for the ring finger, it is too short as it is, so it rubs on the upper middle finger side of the finger close to the second/middle joint, will increase span by around 2mm and see, next time I drill a ball.

Span on middle finger is dropped by 1/4 already. My fingers bend heavily toward the thumb side when closing my hand, so my extreme pitches is also an effect of this.

I did these extreme pitches as an experiment with a ball driller to get my hand close to the ball, and while it did help, the lack of any pressure on my ring finger causes this to be about the same as before with full fingertip and normal pitches.

I can shoot you a picture if I go down to the bowling later. Also got the can with the lateral pitch chart on it. Not too sure it works well with shorter spans, but it'll show why i chose to test extreme pitches.
68.2353°N 14.5636°E is where it happens!

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Re: Is this an issue?

Post by TomaHawk » October 14th, 2021, 1:37 pm

Pictures would be great.

Question, can you bend all of your fingers and touch the palm of your hand without making a fist?

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JJakobsen
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Joined: March 10th, 2013, 9:59 pm
Sport Average: 180
Positive Axis Point: 3 1/2 right, 1 1/2 up
Speed: 15.5 downlane
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Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Marvel Pearl
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick Inferno
Light Oil Ball: Storm Timeless
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Re: Is this an issue?

Post by JJakobsen » October 15th, 2021, 1:49 pm

I did you a better one. 4 minute video 😂

https://youtu.be/kdqtCpWZXCk

I got some pictures as well if you don't wanna listen to my nasal, flu ridden voice!
68.2353°N 14.5636°E is where it happens!

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JJakobsen
Certified Coach
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Posts: 282
Joined: March 10th, 2013, 9:59 pm
Sport Average: 180
Positive Axis Point: 3 1/2 right, 1 1/2 up
Speed: 15.5 downlane
Rev Rate: 450
Axis Tilt: 0
Axis Rotation: 30
Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Marvel Pearl
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick Inferno
Light Oil Ball: Storm Timeless
Preferred Company: 900 Global
Location: Svolvær, Lofoten, Norway

Re: Is this an issue?

Post by JJakobsen » October 15th, 2021, 1:52 pm

Not sure if I got the picture uploaded now tho, might be too large, so I added an imgur link too!

https://imgur.com/a/k6F1P4w
68.2353°N 14.5636°E is where it happens!

TomaHawk
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Re: Is this an issue?

Post by TomaHawk » October 15th, 2021, 4:55 pm

JJakobsen wrote:
October 15th, 2021, 1:49 pm
I did you a better one. 4 minute video 😂

https://youtu.be/kdqtCpWZXCk

I got some pictures as well if you don't wanna listen to my nasal, flu ridden voice!
Nicely done! (Voice not too bad)

Your hand is much more flexible than I had imagined, there are some bricks out there.

First impression, your palm is fairly wide, fingers appear to be somewhat tapered. There isn't anything that indicates your hand structure is out of the ordinary. It is difficult for people with that type of hand structure to place their hand flatter on the ball. To address that issue, there used to be a glove with a pad in the palm. Haven't seen it in a while though, don't even know if it's still available.

Still, the need for an Easter grip and the extreme pitches seems minimal.

I think an offset thumb, about a 1/4 left of center would be a better option. Doing so should allow you to reduce the away from the palm to an 1/8 away, probably start with 0 - 1/8" forward. There are arguments, offsets really do not exist, that is not true. Offsets are based on the orientation of the fingers relative to the thumb.

Sarge Easter type spans are quite the extreme too. In today's game, dropped ring fingers are designed to create a straighter ball path, eliminating torque that is created by the ring finger. If utilized correctly, a dropped ring finger could enhance the bowler's ability to stay behind the ball. But, if the bowler has a tendency to accelerate their swing too early, an Easter will serve to enhance "going around the ball".

I would recommend lengthening the ring finger span to at least to same as the middle finger. The amount of reverse would be based off your release technique. Personally, I would start at 3/8" reverse. Also, start with oval inserts. From that point, you can use various types of inserts to adjust the feel.

* Generally, people with wider palms have ring finger spans that are around 3/16" longer than their middle finger.

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JJakobsen
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Posts: 282
Joined: March 10th, 2013, 9:59 pm
Sport Average: 180
Positive Axis Point: 3 1/2 right, 1 1/2 up
Speed: 15.5 downlane
Rev Rate: 450
Axis Tilt: 0
Axis Rotation: 30
Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Marvel Pearl
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick Inferno
Light Oil Ball: Storm Timeless
Preferred Company: 900 Global
Location: Svolvær, Lofoten, Norway

Re: Is this an issue?

Post by JJakobsen » October 15th, 2021, 5:08 pm

TomaHawk wrote:
October 15th, 2021, 4:55 pm
Nicely done! (Voice not too bad)

Your hand is much more flexible than I had imagined, there are some bricks out there.

First impression, your palm is fairly wide, fingers appear to be somewhat tapered. There isn't anything that indicates your hand structure is out of the ordinary. It is difficult for people with that type of hand structure to place their hand flatter on the ball. To address that issue, there used to be a glove with a pad in the palm. Haven't seen it in a while though, don't even know if it's still available.

Still, the need for an Easter grip and the extreme pitches seems minimal.
I do actually have that kind of glove, but it feels more like it pushes the ball out, so not sure if it's any point in using it tbh.
TomaHawk wrote:
October 15th, 2021, 4:55 pm
I think an offset thumb, about a 1/4 left of center would be a better option. Doing so should allow you to reduce the away from the palm to an 1/8 away, probably start with 0 - 1/8" forward. There are arguments, offsets really do not exist, that is not true. Offsets are based on the orientation of the fingers relative to the thumb.
There is offset on this drill for sure, I was there when he laid it up.
TomaHawk wrote:
October 15th, 2021, 4:55 pm
Sarge Easter type spans are quite the extreme too. In today's game, dropped ring fingers are designed to create a straighter ball path, eliminating torque that is created by the ring finger. If utilized correctly, a dropped ring finger could enhance the bowler's ability to stay behind the ball. But, if the bowler has a tendency to accelerate their swing too early, an Easter will serve to enhance "going around the ball".
I use sarge easter to relieve pain, full fingertip or anything close to it is out of the question. I drilled full fingertip twice the last 5 years, both were very painful experiences. The tension in itself is painful, and the bone lump in the outer joint which I had surgically removed made it even worse. Surgery didn't help with the pain at all either. So sarge easter kinda has to stay if I'm going to bowl, but it's a bit short for me using semi-fingertip on my middle finger, so thats what I mentioned in the video! :) But I'm not using money on trying full fingertip unless a doctor can guarantee me 100% that I can have surgery that makes it pain free.
TomaHawk wrote:
October 15th, 2021, 4:55 pm
I would recommend lengthening the ring finger span to at least to same as the middle finger. The amount of reverse would be based off your release technique. Personally, I would start at 3/8" reverse. Also, start with oval inserts. From that point, you can use various types of inserts to adjust the feel.

* Generally, people with wider palms have ring finger spans that are around 3/16" longer than their middle finger.
As above, even with reverse pitch in ring finger, it's too painful. I actually had 3 11/16 span with 15/16 reverse pitch, 21 degree CLT angle drilled fingers before that ball drilled got kids and more work and quit drilling. He's the first that dared to experiment with these pitches, and they work better than regular lateral pitches for sure!


Anyways, if it's my hand type that makes this happen, I will have to stick with that I got now, and try to learn to get even more on the inside before release. It just felt so extreme.
68.2353°N 14.5636°E is where it happens!

TomaHawk
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Re: Is this an issue?

Post by TomaHawk » October 15th, 2021, 8:32 pm

There must be much more going on with your hand than I can address on the internet.

If you are able to bowl comfortably, without pain, great!

There is a normal tendency of trying to create higher rev rates when using an Easter type grip. Try to resist turning the ball early, keeping the arm and hand behind the ball until that last millisecond.

Seems like you're on track.

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JJakobsen
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Posts: 282
Joined: March 10th, 2013, 9:59 pm
Sport Average: 180
Positive Axis Point: 3 1/2 right, 1 1/2 up
Speed: 15.5 downlane
Rev Rate: 450
Axis Tilt: 0
Axis Rotation: 30
Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Marvel Pearl
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick Inferno
Light Oil Ball: Storm Timeless
Preferred Company: 900 Global
Location: Svolvær, Lofoten, Norway

Re: Is this an issue?

Post by JJakobsen » October 15th, 2021, 10:52 pm

TomaHawk wrote:
October 15th, 2021, 8:32 pm
There must be much more going on with your hand than I can address on the internet.

If you are able to bowl comfortably, without pain, great!

There is a normal tendency of trying to create higher rev rates when using an Easter type grip. Try to resist turning the ball early, keeping the arm and hand behind the ball until that last millisecond.

Seems like you're on track.
I can't get more than max 60°, normally I play with a pretty straight roll, got really low tilt too. Got a really weird roll basically, but it does work. Working hard on moving my eyes up, got this habit of looking down through my approach 🤷🏼‍♂️

Old videos but probably not too far off todays game:
https://youtube.com/shorts/EjX1u4nojw8
https://youtube.com/shorts/sCrplLqQESk
68.2353°N 14.5636°E is where it happens!

User avatar
JJakobsen
Certified Coach
Certified Coach
Posts: 282
Joined: March 10th, 2013, 9:59 pm
Sport Average: 180
Positive Axis Point: 3 1/2 right, 1 1/2 up
Speed: 15.5 downlane
Rev Rate: 450
Axis Tilt: 0
Axis Rotation: 30
Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Marvel Pearl
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick Inferno
Light Oil Ball: Storm Timeless
Preferred Company: 900 Global
Location: Svolvær, Lofoten, Norway

Re: Is this an issue?

Post by JJakobsen » October 15th, 2021, 11:00 pm

I can feel my arm has lost a fair bit of strength from covid lockdowns and my surgery, I can't cup my wrist so I compensate with my elbow a lot.

But I also bought new shoes recently, and started sliding again, which until Thursday didn't feel great, then it suddenly felt right to do. Easier to smooth out my release and practice it when I don't come to a full stop as abrupt as I've done. Probably better for my knee in the long run too.
68.2353°N 14.5636°E is where it happens!

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