Thumbless full-roller?

This forum is for topics related to pro shop operation and bowling center maintenance.
Usual topics include: shop gear, fitting, drilling and lane maintenance.

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
stevespo
Member
Member
Posts: 579
Joined: August 11th, 2014, 8:07 pm
THS Average: 225
Positive Axis Point: 5.75" x + 3/8"
Speed: 17+ off hand (camera)
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Phaze II, Paradox
Medium Oil Ball: IQ Tour, SonIQ, Intense Fire
Light Oil Ball: Hammer Arson Low Flare

Thumbless full-roller?

Post by stevespo » December 14th, 2020, 9:15 pm

A thumbless one-hander that I bowl with had a Hyroad Pearl (pin under bridge, with removable insert thumb hole) that he loved in practice. He wanted to make it legal, so we plugged the thumb - but (as expected) the reaction changed dramatically.

I rewatched Mo's video and re-read the thumbless layout advice - and came up with a 80x5.75x25 layout that I thought might give him some control with the low flaring layout and keep the quick response to friction that he seemed to lose when the thumb (balance) hole went away. This basically put the pin UP and RIGHT of the ring finger. I drilled the fingers to 3.5" deep and we tried the experiment.

The reaction was ok, as long he keeps his speed down - the problem was his track moved RIGHT of the pin and flared towards/over the finger holes. He typically tends to track over the fingers, but this was pretty extreme.

We thought about it and realized he might be a full roller, so we flipped the ball/grips, which put the pin DOWN and LEFT of the grip center and now he was stably tracking just under the finger holes. This looks a lot like a traditional full roller layout for a traditional grip bowler. The reaction was actually pretty good, smoother than before with a good breakpoint.

Not having seen this before, does anyone have any ideas for moving the track LEFT of the pin/grip? I'm thinking perhaps the long pin/pap distance is not a great idea and maybe trying something closer to 4" might help him in the midlane. Mo says to stay away from 2.5-4" but wondering about options to help with track location and ball roll. PAP is 5.75 over and 1.375 down.

Thanks,

Steve
18-19 mph (15.5-16.5 on monitor), 375 rpm, PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up, AT: 12*, AR: 45*

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3682
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Thumbless full-roller?

Post by EricHartwell » December 14th, 2020, 11:33 pm

Is his PAP location measured from the center of the Bridge?
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

elgavachon
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3169
Joined: January 18th, 2010, 9:21 pm

Re: Thumbless full-roller?

Post by elgavachon » December 15th, 2020, 8:30 am

If I put the pin more than 5.5" from PAP on a weak symmetrical ball, a lot of 2 handed bowlers hit holes. If VAL angle is too small, the same thing with backwards flare. Try not to go less than 40*.

User avatar
stevespo
Member
Member
Posts: 579
Joined: August 11th, 2014, 8:07 pm
THS Average: 225
Positive Axis Point: 5.75" x + 3/8"
Speed: 17+ off hand (camera)
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Phaze II, Paradox
Medium Oil Ball: IQ Tour, SonIQ, Intense Fire
Light Oil Ball: Hammer Arson Low Flare

Re: Thumbless full-roller?

Post by stevespo » December 15th, 2020, 4:59 pm

Yes, the pap is measured from center of bridge - and verified with tape.

Thanks, this was the confirmation I was looking for. The long pin and small VAL are a no-go with his release characteristics. The weak sym also appeared to contribute.

Any recommendations for layout to improve tracking and reaction on this ball? 4" pin and 40+ VAL or ?

Thanks!

Steve
18-19 mph (15.5-16.5 on monitor), 375 rpm, PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up, AT: 12*, AR: 45*

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3682
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Thumbless full-roller?

Post by EricHartwell » December 15th, 2020, 9:04 pm

Does his initial track look like this?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

User avatar
stevespo
Member
Member
Posts: 579
Joined: August 11th, 2014, 8:07 pm
THS Average: 225
Positive Axis Point: 5.75" x + 3/8"
Speed: 17+ off hand (camera)
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Phaze II, Paradox
Medium Oil Ball: IQ Tour, SonIQ, Intense Fire
Light Oil Ball: Hammer Arson Low Flare

Re: Thumbless full-roller?

Post by stevespo » December 15th, 2020, 9:56 pm

Yes! Although, I believe he was tracking over the ring finger and then reverse flaring away - it was very hard to tell.
I had not considered the reverse flare possibility until elgavachon mentioned it.
hyroad-small-val.jpg
Here is it with the ball flipped and grips swapped. I did not get the track right. I"m sure it wasn't that horizontal, but it basically tracked in a tight area under the fingers and where a thumb would traditionally be located.
hyroad-full-roller.jpg
Steve
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
18-19 mph (15.5-16.5 on monitor), 375 rpm, PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up, AT: 12*, AR: 45*

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3682
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Thumbless full-roller?

Post by EricHartwell » December 15th, 2020, 10:52 pm

My first Attachment was modeled with Negative 27* of tilt.

It is what is call the "Over Rolled Full Roller"

This is uncharted territory for me. I've never tried to drill a ball for such a roll.
Given the opportunity I would try something like this...
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

User avatar
stevespo
Member
Member
Posts: 579
Joined: August 11th, 2014, 8:07 pm
THS Average: 225
Positive Axis Point: 5.75" x + 3/8"
Speed: 17+ off hand (camera)
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Phaze II, Paradox
Medium Oil Ball: IQ Tour, SonIQ, Intense Fire
Light Oil Ball: Hammer Arson Low Flare

Re: Thumbless full-roller?

Post by stevespo » December 24th, 2020, 11:01 pm

That is very interesting, thanks! I am sure we will experiment - unfortunately the center is closed for the holidays and perhaps a bit longer so not sure how soon we'll be able to try this. I'll file it away for later.

Steve
18-19 mph (15.5-16.5 on monitor), 375 rpm, PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up, AT: 12*, AR: 45*

Post Reply