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 Post subject: Unique axis point
 Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:06 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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My son is 13, 2-hander. He is starting to become a pretty good player. Yesterday he shot 616 on a Junior Gold pattern. He has asked me for a new ball. He wants a Timeless.

In the past he has gone back and forth about using his thumb and finally decided that he wants to go no-thumb from this point forward. I decided it was time to check his axis point. I got his PAP at 5 over and 3 3/8 down, verified by putting tape on the ball and watching it.

I know that 2-handers have unique axis points but the this is a very interesting axis point.

His aresenal right now is, all 14lbs:
Columbia Freeze
Motiv Rebel tank
Target zone

The Freeze hooks a ton, pin is around 5.5 from his axis point above his fingers.

The rebel tank is closer to 6.25” from his PAP well above the fingers, it works well but doesn’t flare as you would expect with that pin placement.

I want to drill the Timeless based off Mo’s no-thumb layouts putting the pin around 2 1/2 from his PAP to help control the change of direction. Thoughts?

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Former Proshop Operator, North Bowl
Spokane, Washington

My stats:
Rev rate: 320
Axis tilt: 17*
Axis rotation: variable(a game is 45*)
Speed: 16-17 at the decks
PAP: 5 3/4 right, 5/8 up


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 Post subject: Re: Unique axis point
 Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:33 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Just to clarify, his PAP is measured from the center of the bridge and his track is above the fingers?

What are his release specs?

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Unique axis point
 Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:49 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
Just to clarify, his PAP is measured from the center of the bridge and his track is above the fingers?

What are his release specs?


Yes, measured from center of bridge and track is above the fingers, clipping the middle finger hole.

I need to get the remainder of his release specs, but I didn't have time yesterday.

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Former Proshop Operator, North Bowl
Spokane, Washington

My stats:
Rev rate: 320
Axis tilt: 17*
Axis rotation: variable(a game is 45*)
Speed: 16-17 at the decks
PAP: 5 3/4 right, 5/8 up


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 Post subject: Re: Unique axis point
 Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:07 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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Clipping the middle finger hole he is rolling approx. -5* of tilt and considered an over-rolled full roller.

Because of his unique PAP normal flare takes the track off the finger hole so nothing special needs to be done to his layouts to make them flare safe. In fact if a higher flare set were to be used it may eliminate the initial track flare from hitting the finger hole. But your inquiry is about another low flare layout. This will do little to eliminate that.

I personally have tried using short pin Symmetrical layouts and did not have much success. I found them to be too skid snap and did not carry well with higher rotation. Granted I am a thumb in bowler and don't have a lot of ball speed. My best look was playing straight, low rotation and keeping the pocket in front of me.

This type of layout for him I believe will produce a PSA that is above the fingers not allowing the core to help the ball reaction. Basically what you are doing here is controlling the flare and letting the coverstock do all the work.

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Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
65* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16mph off hand


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 Post subject: Re: Unique axis point
 Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:28 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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I'll post back when I get his full specs. I don't think he is -5* of tilt.

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Former Proshop Operator, North Bowl
Spokane, Washington

My stats:
Rev rate: 320
Axis tilt: 17*
Axis rotation: variable(a game is 45*)
Speed: 16-17 at the decks
PAP: 5 3/4 right, 5/8 up


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 Post subject: Re: Unique axis point
 Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:03 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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fufu wrote:


Yes, measured from center of bridge and track is above the fingers, clipping the middle finger hole.


Don't go longer than 4 3/4" Pin to Pap on him to avoid clipping middle finger hole.


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 Post subject: Re: Unique axis point
 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:02 am Post Number: #7 Post
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I am also a two handed no thumb bowler. What works for me when deciding layouts is measuring my PAP from a 4" span as if a thumb hole was drilled. It can be any span you choose as long as you keep it the same for every ball, I chose 4" because that's more or less my thumb in span. For static weights the center of the bridge will be used as the center of grip for no thumb bowlers so choose short pin balls especially if you don't want to drill the third hole which will be considered a balance hole. I like 2-3" pin to cg balls. I lay out the balls using the 4" span pap and try to keep the cg close to the ring finger and/or position it to allow for a balance hole that will set the PSA (I use mostly symmetrical cored balls) and thus define the drilling angle. I am assuming your kid's PAP was measured from the center of the bridge.

Questions? Feel free to ask

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I'm out to prove dedication, discipline and really wanting it can go further than raw talent alone...
RPMs - 375-420
Speed - 15 monitor
Axis Tilt - 3* (yikes!!!)
Axis Rotation - depends on what I want the ball to do


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