I'd like to review balls, but.

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river800
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Re: I'd like to review balls, but.

Post by river800 »

crazyjim wrote:Ball reviews are so subjective and bowlers styles very so much that I rarely use them, I try to stick to how the manufacturer rates their equipment. Typically a THS condition will make any ball look good plus the ball thrower needs to be able to read what the ball is doing accurately and from what I've seen there are plenty of high avg bowlers that cannot do this.
I totally agree! There's some higher average guys who bowl where I bowl and they do great the first 2 games or so, but when the 3rd game comes around they keep trying to throw it straight on a broken down house shot. This is a 5 person team so 10 people for 2 lanes. I have been watching the balls rolling and you can visibly see the ball lose rotation and then start hitting flat and yet they keep throwing in the same spot. I tried to say something yesterday to one of the guys but he didn't really want to listen...lol And their scores showed it. I may not be a really good bowler yet myself, but at least I can read the transition pretty good though.

For the ball reviews, I also really like to read the reviews that have most of the specs listed along with a good review. It gives us fellow bowlers a better idea of what to expect if we were to drill that particular ball up.
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I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...
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MattInTheHat
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Re: I'd like to review balls, but.

Post by MattInTheHat »

I have a suggestion that is based on what I've seen other sites do that I think could work here. Have two different levels of reviewers.

First would be your average bowler, those who don't know all their specs, won't take the time to figure out their specs, won't take the time to shoot a video, and simply want to give their personal opinion of a ball. These reviews do still have merit despite the lack of information.

Next would be a certified reviewer, some one who has all their specs listed, who shoots video to go with the words, and who can give their layout using the dual angle system. These reviewers should get a spiffy little Certified icon attached to them so they can be proud they took the time to provide the most specific, accurate information.


Here are a few things that shouldn't be requirements: understanding your specs, understanding dual angles, a high average.

It is of course a benefit to the bowler when they understand how their specs affect their game but not understanding them doesn't make you less able to give a good ball review based on your game. And simply knowing your specs and providing them for others doesn't mean you need to understand them. I will measure specs for most any customer who asks (barring time constraints), or who is buying another ball but has never had it done in the past, or who has a consistent enough game to have measurable specs, and while I do explain their specs to them I don't expect every one of them to understand them. But at least I told them the info, so if they needed to relay that info to some one else they could. Those who understand how a person's specs work will hold your review in much higher regard if you include this info...and even those who don't understand them but simply know their specs will at least be able to see whether or not how you bowl is similar to how they bowl, which will give that person an idea as to whether that ball will react similar or different for them (based on the same layout - which leads me to...).

The same holds true for dual angles and layouts, it is one thing to understand how they work but in terms of posting a review it isn't really important that the person understands the dual angle system, only that they have their dual angle layout and post it. Those who understand dual angles will hold your review in much higher regard if you include this info. I have many customers who bring me a ball simply to find out what the layout on it is and I always give it to them in dual angles even though most of them have never heard of dual angles before. I then explain to them what the drilling angle, val angle, and pin to pap distance do and tell them how I think the ball should be working for them, which more often than not is exactly how the ball works for them (imagine that!). So again, they know the layout (or can easily get it), even if they don't understand it.

And when it comes to average, the number itself doesn't always tell the whole story. I have worked with some guys who have a medium average (160-170) but still have a fairly solid game, just aren't able to get up to that next level for whatever reason (usually lack of strikes). And because they have listened to me they have some understanding of oil, cover stocks, weight blocks, layouts, and their specs. Then there are many high average bowlers who may be very good bowlers but are still stuck in the 70's as far as how they play the game and their knowledge of it. And because they are high average bowlers some of them won't listen to anyone else, because they already know everything they need to. And then there are a few who really shouldn't be averaging what they do, but for whatever reason they manage to keep their average high. I would take the review from one of my 160 average bowlers who relays their specs and layout over the stuck in the past 210 average bowler any day (I would still listen to the latter bowler, just wouldn't hold it in as high a regard as the former).
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Re: I'd like to review balls, but.

Post by jakester »

There are some valid points made here, but as far as recommending a layout to a new bowler or a returning bowler I don't think anyone should be too harsh on someone not knowing their stats as thought they don't know enough to make a suggestion. I'm in the same boat as some other guys, trying to get my stats togehter, BUT if a guy asks a question or implies he needs a ball/layout for med/heavy oil, what's the difference if I say I use a ball with a double thumb layout or someone else, that knows their own specs, tells him that? Anyone can go on Mo's web site and pick out layouts, correct? Contolled layout, DBT layout, etc... So what is the logic of posting videos of bowlers throwing products for us to look at if our specs don't match up with Jack's specs or some one elses? Will a double thumb layout not be the most aggressive layout for me if it is for Jack? Am I completely missing something here?
:?:
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kellytehuna
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Re: I'd like to review balls, but.

Post by kellytehuna »

There is a huge difference between reviewing a ball and making a layout suggestion for someone. Yes, anyone can go to the Morich site, or any bowling ball site for that matter and find a drill sheet. That doesn't mean ANY of the layouts there will work for them.

Since you mention the Double Thumb Layout, I'll continue to use it here. For some bowler's and some conditions, the Double Thumb Layout is simply NOT an option because it will either hook out too soon, or FLY off the break point. Neither of these reactions are desirable. The latter might be entertaining to watch, but try controlling that bad boy and see how fun it is.

I would like to think that for the most part, we are VERY gracious in our request for information when it comes to layouts. For the most part, those that REALLY want their specs will get em one way or another. Getting that info helps us to help them and covers our butts as well. If we make a layout suggestion with little to no data and someone uses the suggestion and it flops, that reflects badly on us and this website.

Anyone can make a ball review. All you need is a pair of functioning eyes (with or without viewing aid :P) along with a functioning brain and the ball you wish to review. How useful that ball review really is will highly dependent on the person reading/viewing that review.
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jakester
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Re: I'd like to review balls, but.

Post by jakester »

Kelly I get what you're saying, personally I only would recommend what I have used and can relate to use on the same condition, but what you left out of my example was that if the guy asked for a med/heavy oil ball.
So why would a DT layout be wrong, why would it hook too soon or fly off the lane ? Then why do we bother anxiously waiting for ball reaction videos to come out?
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Re: I'd like to review balls, but.

Post by scotts33 »

Hits like a truck? :mrgreen: :) :lol:
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kellytehuna
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Re: I'd like to review balls, but.

Post by kellytehuna »

jakester wrote:Kelly I get what you're saying, personally I only would recommend what I have used and can relate to use on the same condition, but what you left out of my example was that if the guy asked for a med/heavy oil ball.
So why would a DT layout be wrong, why would it hook too soon or fly off the lane ? Then why do we bother anxiously waiting for ball reaction videos to come out?
That's exactly the point though. Ball review videos aren't going to give a SPECIFIC bowler much of an idea of what to expect other than it will be stronger/weaker than the piece, or pieces it's being compared to. Even with bowler stats and layouts, most have NO idea what they're looking at. All they know it hooks "this much" more or less than another ball. We "wait anxiously" because it gives us a chance to get a look at the ball and see how it stacks up against pieces we know about already. Without that comparison, we're basically watching somebody bowl.

The problem I have with people (myself included!!!) suggesting layouts without really knowing anything about the bowler is that it's easy to make a suggestion when it's not your equipment that will be ruined if you get it wrong! Sure, they can plug and redrill, but if you make a blind suggestion, you're basically standing back and throwing a dart at the map. How often do we read people saying "I have ball X and it doesn't hook enough" and a bunch of people respond with different layouts, because those layouts work for them. It's ridiculous.

The ball requirement of your previous post is completely irrelevant in this context. Horses for courses, my friend. Once you know how the bowler releases the ball and the condition they're on, you can make an appropriate ball suggestion, along with a layout suggestion. If they already have a ball, then we make the best of the situation and try to make the ball work the way they want it to, if at all possible. In most cases, if people already have a ball, they usually have a good idea of the conditions they want it for as well.

I want to be clear that I'm not bagging people who don't know their stats and I don't believe I've made any rude or unpleasant remarks to bowlers that don't know their stats. Most bowlers could care less what their stats are. Most people know more about their computer's than they do their release stats. I have definitely asked people for their stats and pointed them to resources to get their stats and on a few occasions got those stats for them!
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Re: I'd like to review balls, but.

Post by elgavachon »

There are quite a few of us on here who have really changed their specs from one end of the spectrum to the other. I will use myself for an example. The first time I asked for a benchmark, I had 10* of tilt with 30* of rotation and speed dominant. I drilled up balls according to the suggested layouts as well as some on the other end of the spectrum (which would be layouts for a spinner type release). The balls which fit my specs all worked great and I spent hours with sandpaper and polish trying to fix the others.
I then did grip changes and switched to the other end of the spectrum. Suddenly my favorite layouts were next to worthless (no matter how much I changed the surfaces).
People in the middle probably don't see these extremes. I personally don't think you can fix a bad layout with sandpaper and polish if you are on the extremes.
If someone with 10* of tilt and 30* of rotation speed dominant , trys a double thumb, they will like it. If you have 10* of tilt and 90* of rotation, it might be uncontrollable.
If you have 25* of tilt, a double thumb could be too long of a layout, etc.
I hope people post reviews even if they don't know their specs, but like Kelly says, I might only compare their ball to a ball I use or have seen. The review might not be worth much to me other than that. Even something simple like "high track" or "low track"
is better than nothing.
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Re: I'd like to review balls, but.

Post by jakester »

elgavachon, great post. I guess maybe what your track is should be included in every ball evaluation. That's why I mentioned watching ball videos. Of course a PBA touring member is going to be able to roll strikes in the ball videos. Then you get to compare what the different drillings are doing for HIM. I guess what it comes down to is trusting YOUR ball driller to drill the ball you want for YOU/YOUR SPECS or talk you out of the ball completely. I hope MO gets to come back to upstate NY I'd love to have a couple of balls punched out when he's involved. :)
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