keeping ball reviews in dual angle terminology

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elgavachon
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keeping ball reviews in dual angle terminology

Post by elgavachon »

I was going to add to Eric's post, but it was locked viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2302" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What I was going to say is If these guys could at least post their specs when reviewing these balls so we know if they throw a spinner or are up the back(speed or revs dominante,etc), it would really help us to understand what they are saying. Also, some of us would appreciate very much if they could put it in dual angle terminology. Without the PAP, we cannot even convert this terminology ourselves even if we wanted to. When you see a ball review without this information, it really brings home how accurate the dual angle terminology really is.
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Re: keeping ball reviews in dual angle terminology

Post by MegaMav »

Are you talking about on here or on BowlingBallVault.com?

We have a template on BowlingBallVault, but dual angles arent required, just because I know some arent fluent in it.

If you're talking about people posting reviews on here, lets make up a list of items that would be most useful, and i'll update the sticky.

Dont mistake the sticky as not allowing any reviews, I just dont want staffers using our site as a checklist for dumping copy and paste reviews.

If they're going to post that type of stuff on here, I want them available for questions.
No drop & run allowed, I think thats fair for everyone.

-Eric
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Re: keeping ball reviews in dual angle terminology

Post by elgavachon »

MegaMav wrote:Are you talking about on here or on BowlingBallVault.com?

We have a template on BowlingBallVault, but dual angles arent required, just because I know some arent fluent in it.

If you're talking about people posting reviews on here, lets make up a list of items that would be most useful, and i'll update the sticky.

Dont mistake the sticky as not allowing any reviews, I just dont want staffers using our site as a checklist for dumping copy and paste reviews.

If they're going to post that type of stuff on here, I want them available for questions.
No drop & run allowed, I think thats fair for everyone.

-Eric
I am all for ball reviews. If I make it to the TAT in Vegas, they are giving away Brunswick and they are giving out Storm at the High Roller (if I get down in time to bowl it).
All I was saying is that if possible it would be appreciated if they could include at least their PAP. When someone says the pin is above the ring finger and the mass bias is 1" from the thumb, I don't know how long their span is to convert it to dual angles. It is impossible if they don't include their PAP. I wasn't saying don't allow it. I was just saying maybe we could inform them somehow that their ball reviews are next to worthless if we don't know some of their specs.(or at least a guess that they are a spinner, speed dominant, etc. If they stick around like you say, we can then at least ask if we are interested in one ball in particular. Of course a copy and paste review by a biased party is possibly next to worthless anyway.
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Re: keeping ball reviews in dual angle terminology

Post by MegaMav »

Whats the bare minimum?

PAP
Tilt
Rotation
Speed
VAL Angle
Drilling Angle
Pin to PAP
Lane Surface
Surface Prep

I could go on and on with all of the variables, and its all in the BowlingBallVault.com template.
Im almost to the point where people should just be going to the vault to post all reviews.

Anyone else agree?
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Re: keeping ball reviews in dual angle terminology

Post by magoo »

Eric,
I agree.When I want to know the particulars on a specific ball Bowlingball Vault.I think that is a more suited location for ball reviews.I also agree it would be much more helpful if we knew the reviewers specs,speed,tilt,rotation and layouts.Without them it is hard to see if the review is relative to one's particular game.
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Re: keeping ball reviews in dual angle terminology

Post by MegaMav »

I agree with your assessment.

You're right, if we dont have all of the essential elements, its impossible to relate accurately.
PAP is merely a reference point, and shouldnt be a requirement IMO.

In terms of reviews, we'll start sending people to the Vault.
User experiences are a bit different, if people want to discuss that type of stuff its fine.
I just really want to avoid plastering of the forms with cut and paste material.
Its redundant and a waste of everyone's time to read or page through it.

I have made changes to the review requirements on BowlingBallVault.com
In the attachment below, you'll see the fields and the requirements.

BTW, if you havent written a review on there, I recommend giving it a shot, its completely different from any other website out there.

-Eric
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Re: keeping ball reviews in dual angle terminology

Post by stan »

I have to ask this. How many bowlers really know their Tilt, Rotation and Speed ? My guess, not too many. If they list their PAP, you do have a general ideal if they are up the back or off the side of the ball. I think a lot of bowlers 'guess" on all the information that you require on this site.

My view, if they "Truely" know all the information, then fine post it, if not list the PAP, don't let them guess just to satisfy your review requirements.
Press the + button if you feel I've been helpful
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Re: keeping ball reviews in dual angle terminology

Post by steve s »

stan wrote:I have to ask this. How many bowlers really know their Tilt, Rotation and Speed ? My guess, not too many. If they list their PAP, you do have a general ideal if they are up the back or off the side of the ball. I think a lot of bowlers 'guess" on all the information that you require on this site.

My view, if they "Truely" know all the information, then fine post it, if not list the PAP, don't let them guess just to satisfy your review requirements.
If you are a staffer and posting reviews you should know all the info ....Steve S
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Re: keeping ball reviews in dual angle terminology

Post by MegaMav »

I'd hope they dont guess, but human nature now, to some extent, is instant gratification, better or worse.

Its quite the conundrum as a site admin, do you demand the information?
Or allow it as optional only to have users pass on it and offer minimal help of those reading it and trying to relate?

<admin frustration>
My big beef is the number of reviews that come in without dual angle layouts, without even basic PAP measurements, even tilt & rotation.
Tilt is easily measured with a prosect, and rotation you can estimate roughly with your eye, and speed you can get at the monitor.
This is the information age right?
When is "just put holes in it" going to stop?

The point of BowlingBallVault.com was to eliminate the "drilled pin next to ring, CG kicked out, MB next to my thumb, and wow, this thing hits like a truck" type of garbage review. (I've removed 27 of them already in this year of operation, including one by a Team USA member!)

Granted, I know its probably a lot to ask, but whats the sense in writing a review if all its good for is occupying space and wasting the reader's time?

The scary thought is this type of response to the requirements:
"I cant, my proshop doesnt know how."
or
"The proshop never measured."
Oy vey...
</admin frustration>

In closing, I think if you're ill equipped to supply good, accurate information, you shouldnt be conveying reviews to the public about a particular product. Ball reaction and drilling is more sophisticated now than just getting the statics legal.
elgavachon
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Re: keeping ball reviews in dual angle terminology

Post by elgavachon »

I think Eric is right about the copy and paste reviews. They are almost like a kind of spam or pop-ups. I am not computer literate enough to have an answer. The point I was making was that very few of them actually gave us any background on the bowler. They didn't even say "high tracker" or "low tracker". The problem is that they could come back everyday and bump them or they could multiply.
I don't like the idea of banning reviews completely, because I really enjoy when someone like Jbungard posts a ball review.
I guess I just posted hoping they would read it and include more information which was probably dumb if they don't stick around to answer anyway.
I think you are right Eric. Too many pre-requisites (even on vault) will scare off normal bowlers. Just a request to tell us a little about their style might not.
I rely on Eric completely to Police this site. You are doing a great job.
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Re: keeping ball reviews in dual angle terminology

Post by kwettig »

MegaMav wrote:Whats the bare minimum?

PAP
Tilt
Rotation
Speed
VAL Angle
Drilling Angle
Pin to PAP
Lane Surface
Surface Prep

I could go on and on with all of the variables, and its all in the BowlingBallVault.com template.
Im almost to the point where people should just be going to the vault to post all reviews.

Anyone else agree?
I completely agree...but I'm selfish. I want to know as much as possible about a ball's layout, bowler's style, lane surface, etc. before I make a decision on the next ball to buy. I also think a video should accompany any complete review. If I can't see the ball reaction the reviewer better be detailed as possible or I'll skip the review. That being said, most people are unaware of their stats and their conditions but still want a place to tell everyone how great the ball works(or doesn't work) without the technicals. Some people will purchase their next ball after reading reviews of how good a ball works for people that bowl nothing like them and providing vague directions in how the ball was laid out.

As a pro shop owner I do all I can to educate my customers about their specs and how that will relate to a ball's performance. The only way that people can be informed about the benefits of the dual angle layout method and laying out a ball to match a bowler's specs is by spreading the knowledge provided here and obviously time. Dual angle is becoming more standard in "box layouts" and eventually more people will be versed in the method. From there it's a matter of the customer's expectation that a driller will provide them with a layout that matches up to their specs, especially with the prices of high end equipment.

Perhaps you could write a template for people to reference when writing reviews? Include talking points and perhaps some explanations as to why their specs should be posted. Knowledge is the key to bowler's making educated decisions about their equipment. Continue your great work and the average bowlers knowledge of their sport will increase.
Kyle Wettig
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New Richmond WI
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Re: keeping ball reviews in dual angle terminology

Post by MegaMav »

kwettig wrote: I completely agree...but I'm selfish. I want to know as much as possible about a ball's layout, bowler's style, lane surface, etc. before I make a decision on the next ball to buy. I also think a video should accompany any complete review. If I can't see the ball reaction the reviewer better be detailed as possible or I'll skip the review. That being said, most people are unaware of their stats and their conditions but still want a place to tell everyone how great the ball works(or doesn't work) without the technicals. Some people will purchase their next ball after reading reviews of how good a ball works for people that bowl nothing like them and providing vague directions in how the ball was laid out.

As a pro shop owner I do all I can to educate my customers about their specs and how that will relate to a ball's performance. The only way that people can be informed about the benefits of the dual angle layout method and laying out a ball to match a bowler's specs is by spreading the knowledge provided here and obviously time. Dual angle is becoming more standard in "box layouts" and eventually more people will be versed in the method. From there it's a matter of the customer's expectation that a driller will provide them with a layout that matches up to their specs, especially with the prices of high end equipment.

Perhaps you could write a template for people to reference when writing reviews? Include talking points and perhaps some explanations as to why their specs should be posted. Knowledge is the key to bowler's making educated decisions about their equipment. Continue your great work and the average bowlers knowledge of their sport will increase.
I try to make a video for each of my reviews.
On the vault there is an option to display your youtube video within each review.
I try to provide an avenue to convey as much information as possible in a structured way. However, like stan says, it can be too structured for most, and some wont understand all of the information.
If the vault were integrated into BowlingChat.net, I'd probably be pretty strict with requirements.
But, with over 100,000 hits per week, I need to keep an open mind to the different folks reading and writing.
Unfortunately some reviewers think they can describe reactions with words.
I guess thats like people on food network describing how food tastes. :P
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Re: keeping ball reviews in dual angle terminology

Post by Mo Pinel »

MegaMav wrote: I try to make a video for each of my reviews.
On the vault there is an option to display your youtube video within each review.
I try to provide an avenue to convey as much information as possible in a structured way. However, like stan says, it can be too structured for most, and some wont understand all of the information.
If the vault were integrated into BowlingChat.net, I'd probably be pretty strict with requirements.
But, with over 100,000 hits per week, I need to keep an open mind to the different folks reading and writing.
Unfortunately some reviewers think they can describe reactions with words.
I guess thats like people on food network describing how food tastes. :P

I think you can't give people too much information! People can, and will, skip over things that don't interest them. When it comes to bowling ball reaction, a video is worth more than 1000 words! Pure opinion on my part, based on experience!
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