Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

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Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by magicmike » July 16th, 2009, 4:20 am

So, which do you prefer and why? Or do you like both? Also elaborate.

For me I enjoy both but prefer symmetrics, they seems less finicky when I change my Axis Rotation or make adjustments with my release and physics game. The asymmetrics can be awesome but they seem to be all or nothing in my hands. Both have places in my bag but there is a big reason behiend why I only have one asymmetric in my bag right now.

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Re: Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by MegaMav » July 16th, 2009, 2:30 pm

magicmike wrote:So, which do you prefer and why? Or do you like both? Also elaborate.

For me I enjoy both but prefer symmetrics, they seems less finicky when I change my Axis Rotation or make adjustments with my release and physics game. The asymmetrics can be awesome but they seem to be all or nothing in my hands. Both have places in my bag but there is a big reason behiend why I only have one asymmetric in my bag right now.
I own both and have had success with both.
My preference though is symmetric.
Why? Just easier to keep legal with any given specs.
When the marked mass bias comes into play, your static weight is at the mercy of the Pin and MB placement.
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Re: Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by mmcfarland300 » July 16th, 2009, 7:54 pm

I have had little success with assymetric until recently with my Cell Pearl. Overall I would prefer Symmetric because of reasons already posted.
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Re: Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by CLT2244 » July 17th, 2009, 4:32 pm

Symmetric cause of my high rev rate, they are smoother at the break point and tend to just roll better for my game.
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Re: Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by Amateur » July 23rd, 2009, 6:37 am

I don't think I have a preference. At least, I won't rule out a ball as an option for me simply because of its core type. How I'm throwing the ball is going to be more of a factor in how good my ball reaction is in my opinion. I've had success with both. And don't have much reason to believe one promotes a certain ball motion more than the other.

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Re: Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by mmcfarland300 » July 23rd, 2009, 2:18 pm

Here is the thing with asymmetrics imo with the use of MB you can absolutely dictate ball motion and fine tune it.
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Re: Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by charlest » July 24th, 2009, 2:00 am

No one has has a worse time or expense with asymmetric than I, but over the past 2 years, I've learned that the MB position is of as much importance in getting the proper ball reaction as is the pin position. In fact, as someone has already mentioned, the wrong MB placement can destroy the right pin placement.

So much so, that I'd guess, if you're having problems with an asymmetric and if you can average 200 or more on a house condition, then in the 95% case, the problem is in the MB position.
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Re: Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by mmcfarland300 » July 24th, 2009, 1:27 pm

charlest wrote:No one has has a worse time or expense with asymmetric than I, but over the past 2 years, I've learned that the MB position is of as much importance in getting the proper ball reaction as is the pin position. In fact, as someone has already mentioned, the wrong MB placement can destroy the right pin placement.

So much so, that I'd guess, if you're having problems with an asymmetric and if you can average 200 or more on a house condition, then in the 95% case, the problem is in the MB position.

Agree 100% some drillings just don't work for people.
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Re: Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by Amateur » August 2nd, 2009, 7:10 am

It just came to my attention recently, that the pin position on asymmetrics is not going to give the same result as the same pin position on an asymmetric. Actually, I've heard that before, but it was brought up again. I had read Mo's dual angle technique article, which lays out how each of the core types flares for a given position. The concept of how it works for asymmetrics sort of confused me so I ignored it until now.

Anyways, I guess I'm just trying to point out that it's possible we just don't put the right pin position on these balls. What I'm wondering is, if the MB is about just as important as the pin position, is it best to position them to do the same thing rather than to do opposites(i.e 5x5 seems more productive than a 5x3)?

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Re: Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by mmcfarland300 » August 3rd, 2009, 3:57 pm

In an Assym. Ball I would opt to say that the MB is every bit as important as Pin Position
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Re: Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by charlest » August 3rd, 2009, 8:11 pm

Amateur wrote: Anyways, I guess I'm just trying to point out that it's possible we just don't put the right pin position on these balls. What I'm wondering is, if the MB is about just as important as the pin position, is it best to position them to do the same thing rather than to do opposites(i.e 5x5 seems more productive than a 5x3)?
The problem that concept brings up is that you can't think in those terms on asymmetric cored balls. That assumes the pin acts like it does in symmetric balls and it doesn't. The MB, as you move it from its midpoint (the sharpest breakpoint) towards the VAL, makes the ball's breakpoint earlier. AS you move the MB from its midpoint towards the bowler's track, it makes the beakpoint later and smother. This is vaguely similar to the pin movement on a symmetric ball from leverage towards the PAP (less flare) and from leverage away from the PAP (less flare).
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Re: Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by FBM357 » January 29th, 2010, 2:35 pm

I own both, but prefer symmetric over asymm. Though I've had success with asymm, but it's far shorter than symm. Asymm tends to be, IMO, very 'drill' specific. Most of my asymm equipment is for oily conditions (which I seldom see unless tournament or 1 of my leagues). Symmetrical stuff gives me a vast array of options, especially with cover prep.

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Re: Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by Mo Pinel » January 30th, 2010, 12:04 pm

People,

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A DRILLED SYMMETRICAL BALL!
You are debating a moot point. Once you put holes in any ball, it becomes asymmetrical. Which means it has a PSA and an intermediate differential. All drilled balls are aymmetrical, but with different degrees of asymmetry. Come join us on "MO AND FRIENDS AND ASK EXPERTS YOUR QUESTIONS!" You'll get accurate answers to your questions. I promise!

Controlling the actual location of the PSA of the drilled ball is the key to the ball reaction. Math Is Truth is brilliant in his explanations of that in our forum. Join us!

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Re: Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by Six Pack » February 6th, 2010, 6:30 pm

for an arc type reaction I've done better with symetrical drilled strong over asymetrical.
for long and strong I like the asymetrical drilled long over symetrical.it boils down to what pattern I'm bowling on,blended vrs. a hook spot I guess.

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Re: Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by Mo Pinel » February 6th, 2010, 6:53 pm

Six Pack wrote:for an arc type reaction I've done better with symetrical drilled strong over asymetrical.
for long and strong I like the asymetrical drilled long over symetrical.it boils down to what pattern I'm bowling on,blended vrs. a hook spot I guess.
All drilled balls being asymmetrical, it's the degree of asymmetry that affects the shape of the break point. Your general observation is accurate. Using different layouts based on the degree of asymmetry of the drilled ball will compensate for shape. Use midlane layouts on very asymmetrical drilled balls and more back end layouts on less asymmetrical drilled balls.

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Re: Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by LordOrange » February 17th, 2010, 6:41 am

Definition of a symmetrical is if you slice it in half you would have a duplicate?

examples:
Ford FE engines;
Basketball;
Spheres;
Ying and Yang;

I have been reading alot of ball reviews.....

Is the industry standard moving toward Asymmetrical core balls? I am seeing less and less Symmetrical core balls.

Can the same power be generated from a Symmetrical core ball vs an Asymmetrical core ball?

Does Axis tilt come into play with Symmetrical vs Asymmetrical core balls?
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Re: Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by Mo Pinel » February 17th, 2010, 1:06 pm

LordOrange wrote:Definition of a symmetrical is if you slice it in half you would have a duplicate?

examples:
Ford FE engines;
Basketball;
Spheres;
Ying and Yang;

I have been reading alot of ball reviews.....

Is the industry standard moving toward Asymmetrical core balls? I am seeing less and less Symmetrical core balls.

Can the same power be generated from a Symmetrical core ball vs an Asymmetrical core ball?

Does Axis tilt come into play with Symmetrical vs Asymmetrical core balls?
In ball technology, the correct term is "radially symmetrical", which means that if you cut the ball perpendicular to the pin axis, you will get a circle. An example of radially symmetrical is a table leg. If you can cut it on a lathe, it is radially symmetrical. I have discussed this subject at length in this thread and on "Mo and Friends". I will start a thread called "Radially Symmetrical" on "Mo and Friends" on Friday to handle LordOrange's questions to clarify this issue.

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Re: Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by J_w73 » April 1st, 2010, 7:30 pm

Would it be correct to say , that for people that don't like asymmetrical balls, that if they put the MB in or near the thumbhole that should give them a reaction that would be most like a symmetrical drilled ball??
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Re: Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by cgeorg » April 1st, 2010, 7:45 pm

The difference between symmetrical and asymmetrical is going to be more in the angularity of the breakpoint, which is caused by the higher intermediate differential. Putting the MB on the thumb just increases the strength of the intermediate differential. Increasing VAL angle will probably do more to mimic a symmetrical core.
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Re: Symmetric versus Asymmetric?

Post by J_w73 » April 1st, 2010, 8:01 pm

cgeorg wrote:The difference between symmetrical and asymmetrical is going to be more in the angularity of the breakpoint, which is caused by the higher intermediate differential. Putting the MB on the thumb just increases the strength of the intermediate differential. Increasing VAL angle will probably do more to mimic a symmetrical core.
Makes sense..
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