Sym vs Asym

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TomaHawk
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Re: Sym vs Asym

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EricHartwell wrote: February 26th, 2021, 3:29 amInteresting you say this, I had a full arsenal of $140 balls drilled with balance holes to act like the $250 balls.
My, how times have changed.

I'm not totally against reasonable pin placements, angles, etc. It's bothersome when someone decides to decimate a core design and then publishes it on the net. I don't know about anyone else BC, but I have a sense of monetary value. If someone said, let's lay this 250.00 ball on it's side, basically, zeroing out the intention of the design? I'd be running for the door.

There are so many options out there, as long as that option will play anywhere from the 1 board to the 40th board. The question, would a lower cost, medium flair symmetric allow the person to play within a couple of boards of a low flair expensive asym?

To me, there is a blurred line at that point.
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by 56bird »

TomaHawk wrote: February 27th, 2021, 5:19 am
To me, there is a blurred line at that point.
Now this is a derail I like :D

I have such mixed emotions on this one. On one hand I bought my “Heckin Urethane” t-shirt for a reason. When my teammate gives up on plan A, B and C and takes up the Thane, I know my breakpoint is going to slowly deteriorate. If I thought a short-pin reactive would help bail him out in place of urethane I’d be tempted to donate the difference in cost :lol: Not to say the lane wouldn’t still change, but I feel like my reaction would firm up rather than slowly deteriorate.

My release is more tilty so as Eric says, I’m not too interested in these layouts for myself. I think if I was I’d want to plug and redrill a used ball or something I already have so I wouldn’t be so bummed about neutering a magnificent strong asym.
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by EricHartwell »

TomaHawk wrote: February 27th, 2021, 5:19 am My, how times have changed.

I'm not totally against reasonable pin placements, angles, etc. It's bothersome when someone decides to decimate a core design and then publishes it on the net. I don't know about anyone else BC, but I have a sense of monetary value. If someone said, let's lay this 250.00 ball on it's side, basically, zeroing out the intention of the design? I'd be running for the door.
I would have driven you crazy back in the day.
I had a good relationship with the local Pro. He and I did alot of experimentation.
When balls started to flare and then reactive coverstocks were introduced I lacked the speed in my game to get the ball down the lane. At the time we were also bowling on very short, 28' hand oiled lanes. I wanted a ball that did not flare I called it wobble. I didn't want a lopsided ball.
So I had a Teal Rhino drilled Pin on my Axis with a balance hole 9" from grip center through the PAP, taking out positive side and bottom weight. This made the ball very much balanced, zero top weight and zero side weight.
I learned alot about my release and roll being able to see my axis point. It gave me visual feedback I never had before.
With this ball I broke the 200 avg mark for the first time and won more than enough money with it to buy more balls. I've always reinvested my winnings.

Will I ever get a ball drilled like this again, Nope.
Will I have my PAP marked with a different color plug, yes I will.
TomaHawk wrote: February 27th, 2021, 5:19 am There are so many options out there, as long as that option will play anywhere from the 1 board to the 40th board. The question, would a lower cost, medium flair symmetric allow the person to play within a couple of boards of a low flair expensive asym?
Yes you can use a cheaper ball and play a similar line. But, it is not so much being able to play within a couple of boards and get the ball to the pocket. It is about the carry percentage. I find that I carry better if I have some tilt when the ball hits the pocket. When the tilt gets to zero you are in the realm of the rollout and leaving the flat 10. Or it gets to zero tilt but still has rotation and you leave ringing 10 pins.
Because in many a bowlers' mind its the ball, not that they need to move their feet and play a different line.

Another experiment with not so good results was the short pin Symmetrical low flare. I could always get it to the pocket but my carry percentage was terrible. My conclusion was that it was because it burned off the tilt too fast. I had the same ball drilled with a long pin to PAP low flare layout that carried much better. The shot shape was much different between the 2 as well. But I could play a similar lines.

If you are going to sell them the big money ball it better work. Put the wrong layout on it and they can't play where they are comfortable you won't necessarily have a happy customer.
Some people buy balls based on color or pattern on the ball. I am guilty of this practice too. For a while the ball had to be blue, my favorite color.
My wife is also guilty of this. One year I wanted to get her a new ball. She said she didn't care what ball it was as long as it was green. Just my luck that year there was only one ball out there that was green other than plastic spare balls. I ended up buying the most expensive ball possible at the time. $250 Combat Zone. It was actually a good option because she was needing something that hooked more than her old Pink Hammer.

When the customer chooses the high dollar ball how do you drill it for optimum performance?
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by EricHartwell »

56bird wrote: February 27th, 2021, 2:28 pm Now this is a derail I like :D

I have such mixed emotions on this one. On one hand I bought my “Heckin Urethane” t-shirt for a reason. When my teammate gives up on plan A, B and C and takes up the Thane, I know my breakpoint is going to slowly deteriorate. If I thought a short-pin reactive would help bail him out in place of urethane I’d be tempted to donate the difference in cost :lol: Not to say the lane wouldn’t still change, but I feel like my reaction would firm up rather than slowly deteriorate.

My release is more tilty so as Eric says, I’m not too interested in these layouts for myself. I think if I was I’d want to plug and redrill a used ball or something I already have so I wouldn’t be so bummed about neutering a magnificent strong asym.
Be aware the short pin Asym will create carrydown much like urethane when you get too short, generally speaking <1.5".
The dry flare lines on the back end travel back over the wet lines from the beginning of the pattern.
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Re: Sym vs Asym

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I've included a video of a bowler utilizing a lower end ball drilled with stronger layout rather than a higher end ball drilled very weak. The purpose of the video is not to lay claim to a certain ball or layout, but to provide a visual image of what I was referring to in my previous post. The layout in this video was customized for this particular bowler and the lane condition for which the ball was intended.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB2YXnslsbw
Last edited by TomaHawk on March 13th, 2021, 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by EricHartwell »

Lucky strike.
I would recommend a surface change to get the ball to face up to the pocket rather than hit light using the wall shot to carry the 5 pin.

Coverstock and surface prep need more importance put on them.

Too many people out there think that the layout is the miracle they are looking for to give them the best ball reaction for a less than optimum release or to play a less than optimum part of the lane or both.
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Re: Sym vs Asym

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EricHartwell wrote: March 1st, 2021, 6:47 pm Lucky strike.
I would recommend a surface change to get the ball to face up to the pocket rather than hit light using the wall shot to carry the 5 pin.

Coverstock and surface prep need more importance put on them.

Too many people out there think that the layout is the miracle they are looking for to give them the best ball reaction for a less than optimum release or to play a less than optimum part of the lane or both.
Absolutely!

In terms of the young lady, she is a fairly lucky bowler, threw that ball for 250 and 260 out the box in high school league play :)
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by J_w73 »

I look at it this way. Asymmetricals give you more options for reactions. A 5 to 6 inch pin to pap on a symmetrical ball will put the ball in a high RG orientation at release, which can create a quick reaction to friction and a sharp hook angle, but the 5 to 5 1/2 inch pin will usually reduce the flare quite a bit on a symmetrical ball, sometime making the ball go too long. An asymmetrical ball allows you to put the ball in the same high rg orientation (5 to 6 " pin to pap), but the mass bias / PSA gives the ball another stability, or instability point, and allows you to still create a lot of flare.
Therefore you get a ball that will flare a lot and churn through the oil and read earlier, but still provide a quick reaction on the backend. It will create a lot more flare for a short pin to pap as well, but I don't know what that would do for the reaction.. For me, I don't have a strong release or fast ball speed, so strong cover asyms tend to roll forward too quickly for me and symmetricals tend to give me more backend and continuation. Of course it depends on the layout.
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by TheJesus »

EricHartwell wrote: February 27th, 2021, 3:17 am When the ball hits the pocket with too much tilt it has a tendency to bounce off the pocket, too much deflection, poor carry percentage.
Ok. But isn't the player supposed to make his ball hit later when his tilt will be lower?
EricHartwell wrote: February 27th, 2021, 3:17 amThe shorter pin to PAP distances loose tilt at a slower pace.
Can you explain why this happens? In short pin to pap balls, isn't the core already near the most stable position ? Doesn't that mean that the axis and tilt will get low fast?

Thanks !
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Re: Sym vs Asym

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TheJesus wrote: March 11th, 2021, 4:11 pm Ok. But isn't the player supposed to make his ball hit later when his tilt will be lower?

Can you explain why this happens? In short pin to pap balls, isn't the core already near the most stable position ? Doesn't that mean that the axis and tilt will get low fast?

Thanks !
1. High tilt players naturally get length, they need layouts and surface to help get the ball into a roll
2. Low flare or short pin to pap layouts don’t burn the tilt off quick enough for higher tilt or spin biscuits to get the benefits of that layout, it’s a slower transition of skid hook roll than they need
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by EricHartwell »

Roll has been defined as when the Tilt and Rotation become equal, the ball is no longer hooking and in the roll phase.
TheJesus wrote: March 11th, 2021, 4:11 pm Ok. But isn't the player supposed to make his ball hit later when his tilt will be lower?
I am not sure what your question is here.
TheJesus wrote: March 11th, 2021, 4:11 pm Can you explain why this happens? In short pin to pap balls, isn't the core already near the most stable position ? Doesn't that mean that the axis and tilt will get low fast?

Thanks !
With a Short Pin to PAP on a Symmetrical ball the Tilt will collapse very quickly because the Low Rg axis has more influence on the tilt than the the Mass Bias or PSA because there is not enough Asymmetry. But...

Mass Bias, PSA, Preferred Spin Axis is the stronger influence with an Asymmetrical ball so the spin of the ball retains the Tilt burning it off at a slower rate. It is the Gyroscopic effect that exists with Asymmetrical balls that does not exist with Symmetricals.
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by 44boyd »

Eric, have you had the chance to see the Rubicon’s? Like to know your thoughts since they’re coming out with cores that are supposed to act like symmetricals with weight holes.
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by EricHartwell »

Thanks for making me look, Im not really in the market to upgrade my collection so I haven't been keeping up on all the "new" stuff.

Marketing

With its weak PSA rating, layouts on it will be begging for balance holes.
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Re: Sym vs Asym

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That’s what I was thinking when I heard it, thanks
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Re: Sym vs Asym

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Time to re-think, the Rubicon does indeed look like a symmetric with a hole. On the flip side, the Axiom acts like an asymmetric without a hole. That's the fine line I referred to in an earlier post.
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by TheJesus »

EricHartwell wrote: March 11th, 2021, 7:41 pm With a Short Pin to PAP on a Symmetrical ball the Tilt will collapse very quickly because the Low Rg axis has more influence on the tilt than the the Mass Bias or PSA because there is not enough Asymmetry. But...

Mass Bias, PSA, Preferred Spin Axis is the stronger influence with an Asymmetrical ball so the spin of the ball retains the Tilt burning it off at a slower rate. It is the Gyroscopic effect that exists with Asymmetrical balls that does not exist with Symmetricals.
Why wouldn't the gyroscopic effect exist in symmetrical balls ?
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by EricHartwell »

TheJesus wrote: March 23rd, 2021, 3:35 pm Why wouldn't the gyroscopic effect exist in symmetrical balls ?
Because of the PSA, the Mass Bias strength. The stronger it is the greater the gyroscopic effect and how it influences Tilt.

I shouldn't have said, "does not exist with Symmetricals" , but rather is very weak in Symmetrical balls.
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Re: Sym vs Asym

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The polarity of a weight block, core design, has a lot of influence too.
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by TheJesus »

EricHartwell wrote: March 23rd, 2021, 11:09 pm Because of the PSA, the Mass Bias strength. The stronger it is the greater the gyroscopic effect and how it influences Tilt.

I shouldn't have said, "does not exist with Symmetricals" , but rather is very weak in Symmetrical balls.
Oh ok, got you now. Thanks.
Now to explain why the mass bias enhances the gyroscopic effect, i should probably ask a physicist :mrgreen:
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by EricHartwell »

TheJesus wrote: March 25th, 2021, 7:56 pm Now to explain why the mass bias enhances the gyroscopic effect, i should probably ask a physicist :mrgreen:
To fully understand I think we need to be able to completely explain gravity, laws of motion and how the Earth will progress spinning on its everchanging Asymmetrical Axis.
You find that person, introduce me.

My thinking....
There are gravitational forces created by spinning objects. Or could it be described as the effect of gravity due to spin.

The faster the spin, the greater the forces.

There are 2 axis locations where these forces are the strongest.

The Low Rg Axis, the Pin.

The High Rg Axis, The Mass Bias/PSA.

In Highly Asymmetrical bowling balls the PSA will be much stronger which in my mind correlates to more gyroscopic effect...
It allows the ability to resist or assist gravity.

Long Pin to PAP Asymmetrical drillings burn Tilt faster, I consider that to assist gravity.

Short Pin to PAP Asymmetrical drillings make Tilt burn off slower effectively resisting gravity.
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