Sym vs Asym

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56bird
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Sym vs Asym

Post by 56bird »

I’ve been seeing some information out there on the subject of sym vs asym and why you would choose one or the other. A lot of it “strikes” me as misinformation but being a once-a-week league bowler I wouldn’t say I’m qualified as an expert.

For years I’ve felt that the difference between sym and asym boils down to differential ratio and second transition. That’s it. I like to start with a sym as I find the longer second transition easier to control, then if I’m having trouble kicking the corners out I switch to asym. At some houses I might just start with asym because I have an idea what to expect.

It’s a confusing subject also because “shorter second transition” sounds a lot like “skid-flip” and many skid-flip bowling balls are syms. I think most of us understand this is because cover and surface dominates ball reaction. Then there are the differences in ball behavior for a different layout, an asym with a 5” pin-to-pap layout might be really strong and rolly, I wouldn’t call a 5” pin-to-pap layout on a symmetric ball strong at least from a flare standpoint.

To discuss this honestly you have to take other ball characteristics out of the equation. Cover, surface, core shape (as it relates to drilled numbers), all that has to go away. Also, cool as short pin-PAP layouts might be, no neutered asyms.

On the face of it you could compare something like Storm’s Axiom and Proton Physix, same cover, same RG, similar Diff, one sim one significantly asym. I can’t say I have a sym and an asym similar enough in the other characteristics to compare on-lane in this tone of voice.

One note, yes I know “all drilled bowling balls are asym”. My definition of asym is a ball that starts out over .010 int diff. I don’t include a ball with .003 int diff among asyms.

Anyway here are my questions:

Does an asym have more flare potential than a sym, all other things being equal?
Are asyms “earlier”, all other things being equal?
Does an asym have more “hook potential” than a sym, all other things being equal?
Why do *you* reach for an asym vs a sym?
What else am I missing?
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by 56bird »

42 views, no comments. Interesting... or perhaps, uninteresting? 🤣
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by SRB442 »

With my game asym. balls read the lane front to back where sym. balls read the lane side to side all things equal . For me asym. balls hook more but read the middle more compared to a sym which goes longer and hooks more on the end which looks like more hook but it isn't. Steve
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by EricHartwell »

56bird wrote: February 24th, 2021, 1:09 pm 42 views, no comments. Interesting... or perhaps, uninteresting? 🤣
Not uninteresting, difficult.
2 of those views were me. Today makes 3.

I wanted to comment but you had made this disclaimer...
56bird wrote: February 20th, 2021, 2:45 pm To discuss this honestly you have to take other ball characteristics out of the equation. Cover, surface, core shape (as it relates to drilled numbers), all that has to go away. Also, cool as short pin-PAP layouts might be, no neutered asyms.
You can't take other ball characteristics out of the equation otherwise you no longer have an equation and it's not equal.

One of the reasons I like Asyms is because you can neuter them.
You can neuter Symmetrical balls too. You already mentioned it. Put a 5" pin to PAP on a low differential Symmetrical ball and you have effectively neutered it.

Most of my Symmetrical balls had balance holes making them Asymmetrical. The only way to really replace them is to use Asyms except that most Asyms today are really strong covers vs the Symmetrical balls with medium strength covers I had with balance holes. So I will never really get to replace them in kind.

Does an asym have more flare potential than a sym, all other things being equal?
Yes, No, Maybe?? Depends on where and how you make all things equal.

Are asyms “earlier”, all other things being equal?
Asyms Can be earlier, but... can also be later.

Does an asym have more “hook potential” than a sym, all other things being equal?
Yes, No, Maybe?? Depends on where and how you make all other things equal.

Why do *you* reach for an asym vs a sym?
I reach for an Asym to control when and how the core will rev by being able to choose the appropriate pin to PAP, drilling angle to VAL angle Ratio and total angles to get the ball to roll.
Sometimes I want it to be Earlier, lower ratio, stronger Pin To PAP on the Fresh.
Or maybe I want it neutered with a low flare layout that retains my lower tilt when the lanes are burnt.
I do love a solid ball with 1:1 Ratio, Control Layout as an all purpose ball. An awesome set up for those that can manipulate their release and want one ball usable on many lane conditions.

What else am I missing?
Several Asymmetrical balls layed out in arsenal format tuned to your specs maybe?
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by 56bird »

Oh, I have Ayms :D Some of them tuned by some prominent names from around here, or with layouts inspired by those...

You’re right, it’s a difficult topic and probably not well understood in general- I certainly count myself among those who don’t master the subject.

I made this thread because I sensed some possible misinformation floating around on the subject but I honestly don’t have the technical expertise to back that up. I’m literally a once a week house bowler but I like to think about this stuff.

I think wanting to put a short pin-to-pap layout on a ball, looking for that urethane-esque or alternative shape is a perfectly good reason to choose an asym, it’s just outside the purpose of this discussion.

Two statements were made: one, asyms get into an earlier roll. Might be getting somewhere there, I associate Diff Ratio with second transition “hook to roll”. Most companies have one “hook in a box” apex heavy oil ball, they aren’t invariably big asyms but more often than not. I would not argue this point.

Two: asyms flare more. I associate Diff (RG differential) with flare potential. If there is a relationship between asymmetry and flare I’m unaware of it- I figure someone around here would be aware of it if true.

There was a statement about asyms “rolling out” on friction, I think that has more to do with matching cover to friction but I guess there could be something to it?

For me, I don’t have a ton of hand and my tilt can be on the high side so I sometimes need help getting the ball into a roll. Asyms with longer pin-to-pap layouts do this for me. I do have symmetric stuff I like and use- I would say a sym gives me a little more notice that it’s time to move left in the form of 4 pins or (hopefully) trip 4’s. If I miss the move with an asym it’s more likely to go through the face.
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by 44boyd »

Lower RG spin up quicker to read the lane earlier, those tend to roll out as you move in. So you’d move to a medium or high RG to get it down lane more
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by 56bird »

44boyd wrote: February 25th, 2021, 1:17 pm Lower RG spin up quicker to read the lane earlier, those tend to roll out as you move in. So you’d move to a medium or high RG to get it down lane more
This is why I say you have to take the other ball characteristics out of the equation (even if some hate the idea :lol: ) A sanded Proton Physix or Results Solid will “hook” sooner than a polished Hyroad or Counter Attack Pearl. That’s first transition. More surface, stronger cover, lower RG, the trifecta of earlier hook. I don’t know if degree of asymmetry has “little” to do with length (first transition) or “nothing” (this is something I’m trying to ask here) but I do *know* it is, if anything, far behind those other factors.
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by 44boyd »

If you want to have a discussion about it and eliminate what makes the balls unique, you can’t go from one spectrum to the polar opposite on a ball scale. Now if you would have gone from a Results solid to a Bias Solid etc to give opposite ends of a asymmetrical solid comparison by saying hey this is what I notice between low RG vs High RG, it gives room to discuss. If not it’s like talking about a UFO and Rhino and that’s it
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by TomaHawk »

44boyd wrote: February 25th, 2021, 3:41 pmIf not it’s like talking about a UFO and Rhino and that’s it
Basically, that describes the difference between a symmetric and asymmetric, everything else is in between.

In today's bowling ball market place, the differences can be a little blurred. It's almost as if the manufactures have a preconceived notion, some people like symmetric and hate asymmetric, or, vice versa and are trying to address that issue.

There are strong symmetrical balls, there are weak asymmetricals too. For example, a Rubicon, an asymmetric, tends to provide a strong, even roll, very similar to certain symmetrics. An Axiom pearl, symmetric, can deliver a more angular backend movement that simulates an asymmetric.

There are so many other variables, the list goes and on...
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by 56bird »

I am trying to eliminate the variables. Go back to the original post. Proton Physix and Axiom, same named cover, same RG, similar Diff. Spin them up to the same surface and they are outwardly pretty similar. I didn’t pick them by accident.

I talked about the Proton Physix/Hyroad because yes, these have different OOB surface, cover strength, cores, everything. The dominant characteristics in 1st transition as far as I know are surface, cover, RG... I’m trying to discuss asymmetry and leave out those other dominant characteristics. Bringing RG into the conversation derails it.

Back in 2012 Ebonite released a couple Pursuit balls, one sym one “asym” which almost could have illustrated the point perfectly. Unfortunately with only .008 Int Diff on the Asym version... not really all that asym IMO.
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by TomaHawk »

From my experience, there are significant differences between both Axioms (solid and pearl) and the Proton. For comparison purposes, if the Axiom and Proton were the same exact color, a good bowler would easily recognize the differences in the rolling characteristics of the balls. The RG / DIFF numbers say a lot, but the actual core design is just as critical if not more critical.

The most powerful asyms transition more abruptly at any given point on the lane. If a person picks such a ball, that should be their expectation. It would be puzzling from a pro shop perspective if a customer asked for an asymmetric to be neutralized, that's really not the intended philosophy behind asymmetrics.
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by 56bird »

TomaHawk wrote: February 25th, 2021, 5:54 pm It would be puzzling from a pro shop perspective if a customer asked for an asymmetric to be neutralized, that's really not the intended philosophy behind asymmetrics.
It’s trendy these days. I’ve never tried it, the one urethane I have fitted right now just collects dust.

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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by TomaHawk »

Oh, I get it now, let's take a 250.00 ball and make it act like a 140.00 ball...hmmmmmm
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by 56bird »

TomaHawk wrote: February 25th, 2021, 8:40 pm Oh, I get it now, let's take a 250.00 ball and make it act like a 140.00 ball...hmmmmmm
That is definitely a way of looking at it :lol: Can’t fault the math.
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by TomaHawk »

56bird wrote: February 25th, 2021, 8:42 pm That is definitely a way of looking at it :lol: Can’t fault the math.
...not everyone appreciates my sense of humor
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by EricHartwell »

I went with the description of neutered but probably should not have. Asymmetrical low flare layouts are not necessarily neutered.
I am not talking 125-3/4-70 complete neutering in the video above.
I'm talking about a 1.5" to 2.5" pin to PAP low flare layout I recommend in the basic arsenal.
Shorter pin to PAP Asymmetric is nothing like how a Symmetrical can be drilled. Urethane , reactive or whatever.
It is not for all bowlers. High tilt bowlers are not going to like how the gyroscopic effects prevent their ball from actually rolling.
TomaHawk wrote: February 25th, 2021, 8:40 pm Oh, I get it now, let's take a 250.00 ball and make it act like a 140.00 ball...hmmmmmm
Interesting you say this, I had a full arsenal of $140 balls drilled with balance holes to act like the $250 balls.

I am the bowler that favors the Asymmetrical over Symmetrical.
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by Clueless »

Eric:
You mentioned that high tilt players are not going to like how the gyroscopic effects prevent their ball from actually rolling when using a low flare layout. Can your expound on this statement?
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by EricHartwell »

Clueless wrote: February 27th, 2021, 2:18 am Eric:
You mentioned that high tilt players are not going to like how the gyroscopic effects prevent their ball from actually rolling when using a low flare layout. Can your expound on this statement?
When the ball hits the pocket with too much tilt it has a tendency to bounce off the pocket, too much deflection, poor carry percentage.

The shorter pin to PAP distances loose tilt at a slower pace. Some people will describe it as it stores tilt rather than burning it off.

The gyroscopic effect is that of a top/gyroscope. When it it is spinning it is difficult to knock over.
It takes more friction to tip it over into its roll. So the higher the tilt the more friction is needed.
Dull surface helps with low flare layouts but if the tilt is too much, too much surface will burn off rotation too fast making it equal the tilt too soon and not hooking enough to get to the pocket.

I would not recommend the short pin Asym for any bowlers with +25* of tilt. Even 20* is starting to get to high in my opinion, it would have to be for quite the high friction condition or really rev dominant bowler.
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by 44boyd »

They need longer pin to paps to burn off tilt, low flare layout won’t get the ball into a roll for them
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Re: Sym vs Asym

Post by Clueless »

Thanks Eric for the quick response.
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