Which spins faster with the least amount of force? Asym or SymEricHartwell wrote: ↑March 26th, 2021, 1:08 am The faster the spin, the greater the forces.
There are 2 axis locations where these forces are the strongest.
The Low Rg Axis, the Pin.
The High Rg Axis, The Mass Bias/PSA.
In Highly Asymmetrical bowling balls the PSA will be much stronger which in my mind correlates to more gyroscopic effect...
It allows the ability to resist or assist gravity.
Sym vs Asym
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Re: Sym vs Asym
- MathIsTruth
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Re: Sym vs Asym
I would like to add that the strength of the Int RG axis also plays a huge roll which is more of the reason why Symm balls have less gyroscopic effect.EricHartwell wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2021, 11:09 pm Because of the PSA, the Mass Bias strength. The stronger it is the greater the gyroscopic effect and how it influences Tilt.
I shouldn't have said, "does not exist with Symmetricals" , but rather is very weak in Symmetrical balls.
- MathIsTruth
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Re: Sym vs Asym
We have said numerous times that core shape matters and it couldn’t be stated enough so I appreciate your post. The geometric shape has everything to do with the amount of gyroscopic potential that can be achieved with a bowling ball. This topic is one of the areas that I was most excited to learn about with the cores Mo and I built over the last 13 years. I figured out a way to measure that potential years ago so Mo and I pushed each other to understand what changes in core shapes did to that potential. Sometimes subtle changes would affect that potential. The development of Radical cores was special in that way because we had 3 criteria to hit when we designed our cores; undrilled mass properties, drilled mass properties like the 70/3.5”/20 layout, and the gyroscopic potential value. Core shape matters.
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Re: Sym vs Asym
Interesting question. I don't know the answer for sure, but...
Off the top of my head I would say it would depend on the Rg of the PAP not whether it was Symmetrical or Asymmetrical.
Eric Hartwell
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PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
- deanchamp
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Re: Sym vs Asym
That was my initial thought too, the RG of the PAP once the ball is drilled would influence how 'fast' something would spin with the same force applied.
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- TheJesus
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Re: Sym vs Asym
Thanks for trying Eric.
Check out my bowling related YouTube channel ! BOWLING XP ! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1cTYc ... Eynuk0qdIw
- TheJesus
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Re: Sym vs Asym
Interesting. Could you offer an example of 2 cores that have different shapes but same RG/DIFF and what their possible differences can be on the lane ? Thanks !MathIsTruth wrote: ↑March 26th, 2021, 5:45 pm We have said numerous times that core shape matters and it couldn’t be stated enough so I appreciate your post. The geometric shape has everything to do with the amount of gyroscopic potential that can be achieved with a bowling ball. This topic is one of the areas that I was most excited to learn about with the cores Mo and I built over the last 13 years. I figured out a way to measure that potential years ago so Mo and I pushed each other to understand what changes in core shapes did to that potential. Sometimes subtle changes would affect that potential. The development of Radical cores was special in that way because we had 3 criteria to hit when we designed our cores; undrilled mass properties, drilled mass properties like the 70/3.5”/20 layout, and the gyroscopic potential value. Core shape matters.
Check out my bowling related YouTube channel ! BOWLING XP ! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1cTYc ... Eynuk0qdIw
Re: Sym vs Asym
Interesting yet I still don’t feel like the question is really answered. The subject of the video is spot-on but if it is addressed I’m missing it.
The bit about skid phase being longer on an asym is interesting. I’m not so sure about that but he’d know better than I would.
The bit about skid phase being longer on an asym is interesting. I’m not so sure about that but he’d know better than I would.
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Re: Sym vs Asym
Asymms can potentially have a sloped, gradually increasing flare profile.
ie: 6" pin-pap can flare more than a 4" pin-pap
Symms always have a bell-shaped flare profile.
ie: 4" pin-pap is more or less max flare.
Asymm for Bowlers that need both long pins and high flare.
Asymm for bowlers that need to use low angle ratios for their benchmark layout.
Asymm for long heavy patterns that require low angle sums and faster recovery.
My own general rule of thumb for pin-PAP is to convert the pin-PAP distance to core angle, and match that core angle to the bowler's axis rotation angle, then adjust it slightly up or down to compliment their axis tilt angle and expected post-drilling low-RG axis shift.
ie: 60 degrees of axis rotation generally correlates with a 4.5" pin-PAP (60 degree core angle), while 45 degrees of axis rotation might match up better with a 3.75" pin-PAP (45 degree core angle).
ie: 6" pin-pap can flare more than a 4" pin-pap
Symms always have a bell-shaped flare profile.
ie: 4" pin-pap is more or less max flare.
Asymm for Bowlers that need both long pins and high flare.
Asymm for bowlers that need to use low angle ratios for their benchmark layout.
Asymm for long heavy patterns that require low angle sums and faster recovery.
My own general rule of thumb for pin-PAP is to convert the pin-PAP distance to core angle, and match that core angle to the bowler's axis rotation angle, then adjust it slightly up or down to compliment their axis tilt angle and expected post-drilling low-RG axis shift.
ie: 60 degrees of axis rotation generally correlates with a 4.5" pin-PAP (60 degree core angle), while 45 degrees of axis rotation might match up better with a 3.75" pin-PAP (45 degree core angle).
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AR: 55º
AT: 17º
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AT: 17º
- MegaMav
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Re: Sym vs Asym
I've kept it real simple for me, personally.
Symmetricals outside 15 at the arrows, asymmetricals inside 15 at the arrows.
Symmetricals outside 15 at the arrows, asymmetricals inside 15 at the arrows.
- EricHartwell
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Re: Sym vs Asym
Several good pointssnick wrote: ↑May 3rd, 2021, 8:37 pm Asymms can potentially have a sloped, gradually increasing flare profile.
ie: 6" pin-pap can flare more than a 4" pin-pap
Symms always have a bell-shaped flare profile.
ie: 4" pin-pap is more or less max flare.
Asymm for Bowlers that need both long pins and high flare.
Asymm for bowlers that need to use low angle ratios for their benchmark layout.
Asymm for long heavy patterns that require low angle sums and faster recovery.
My own general rule of thumb for pin-PAP is to convert the pin-PAP distance to core angle, and match that core angle to the bowler's axis rotation angle, then adjust it slightly up or down to compliment their axis tilt angle and expected post-drilling low-RG axis shift.
ie: 60 degrees of axis rotation generally correlates with a 4.5" pin-PAP (60 degree core angle), while 45 degrees of axis rotation might match up better with a 3.75" pin-PAP (45 degree core angle).
I hadn't given thought to core angle and axis rotation and in looking back the layouts I've recommended I adjust Pin to PAP to accommodate both Tilt and Rotation, my adjustments are very much in line with how you explained and now I understand a bit more why, thank you.
To expound a little further...
Asymmetrical balls and low ratio layouts, the flare pattern will have more distance between the flare lines in the oil and less on the back end.
Where as High Ratio layouts will have more flare on the back end.
1:1 ratios will have more even flare distribution
These flare patterns contribute to the shape of the ball motion.
It is about how you position the pin to spin line in respect to the initial track then manage the speed to rev relationship with flare potential of the ball you are drilling.
Things you just can't do with Symmetrical balls.
Eric Hartwell
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand
- snick
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Re: Sym vs Asym
I am happy to hear your assessment of my assertion. I have found you to be a consistently excellent resource over the years. Cheers.
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Byron
RH
PAP: 5.5625 x .625 up
REVRATE: 360
SPEED: 17mph at release
AR: 55º
AT: 17º
Byron
RH
PAP: 5.5625 x .625 up
REVRATE: 360
SPEED: 17mph at release
AR: 55º
AT: 17º