Let's talk surface

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Mongo
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Let's talk surface

Post by Mongo » August 30th, 2019, 4:42 am

Curious as to what surfaces has in their bag (how much, ranges, etc.)

Right now, I'm pretty sure I don't have enough surface for the current THS I'm bowling on.

I'll start...

Magnitude 035 - 4 X 50, 2000/polish
Magnitude 035 - 4 x 50, 2000
Intel - 3 1/2 x 45, 2000
Conspiracy Solid - 70 x 5 x 50, 3000
Beyond Ridiculous Solid - 5 x 40, 3000

First couple of weeks, it seems like they've opened up the floodgates in the middle. The wet/dry laterally is just silly (skates in the middle, jumps if you get it out). Will openly admit I'm behind on tweaking covers, but, after the last 2 sessions, I think it's time to break out the 1000 pad....or more.

Also, and this should surprise no one, these aren't my only options, just a quick idea of what I've got.

This gets back to old school me and trying to make physical adjustments vs. just making equipment changes (i.e. surface, layouts).

So, what are you taking out there?
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JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.

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Re: Let's talk surface

Post by KYBOB » August 30th, 2019, 6:55 am

........"I think it's time to break out the 1000... or more"...

Good a place to start as any. Unfortunately I've been there done that. Nothing was ever consistent. As I've stated to you before, the fresh is a "killer" for me (and I suspect pretty much for you too). Let the lanes set a few hours after oiling (or over night) and one can hardly miss, using pretty much any ball/layout. So far I've found nothing to overcome the fresh. One would think more surface, but I couldn't find it. I've tried a lot, as well as you, within the parameters of "normal" bowling strategy with very limited and inconsistent success. Doubling our rev rates would probably remedy our struggles, BUT I ain't figured out how to do that. Two-handed is probably a dream for us too.

I'm moving on to another strategy that exceeds the parameters of "normal". (just getting started).

You for now.....Intel 4000 grit or less. Not sure the VAL is low enough though. What else you got weaker than Intel with short Pin-PAP?
KyBOB
________________________________

STATS:

LH
PAP = 4"< x 1"^
Speed = 18-19 off hand
Rev Rate = 250-275
AR = 45*-50*
AT = 23*

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Re: Let's talk surface

Post by krava » August 30th, 2019, 7:22 am

I am going to have to rethink surface.

balls in 3 ball bag. Storm Rocketship, Plastic track + ball, Conspiracy. Rocketship probably has 15-20 games on it after putting the surface on it. Probably around 5000 gritt I would have to estimate. The ball is good to around 13-14ish board out to 6-8 and then stops turning the corner. Conspiracy has 20-30 games on it probably around 5000 gritt also. Ball works when rocketship fails to turn the corner. I used to redo the gritt every 12 games. With a fresh pattern, both balls are a bit too strong for my taste but can still use them. In the last probably 7-9 games or somewhere around that, haven't thrown 1 ball missing the head pin to the right (except for 1 gutter shot). Add more surface and it will be even more hook.

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Mongo
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Re: Let's talk surface

Post by Mongo » August 30th, 2019, 3:32 pm

KYBOB wrote:........"I think it's time to break out the 1000... or more"...

Good a place to start as any. Unfortunately I've been there done that. Nothing was ever consistent. As I've stated to you before, the fresh is a "killer" for me (and I suspect pretty much for you too). Let the lanes set a few hours after oiling (or over night) and one can hardly miss, using pretty much any ball/layout. So far I've found nothing to overcome the fresh. One would think more surface, but I couldn't find it. I've tried a lot, as well as you, within the parameters of "normal" bowling strategy with very limited and inconsistent success. Doubling our rev rates would probably remedy our struggles, BUT I ain't figured out how to do that. Two-handed is probably a dream for us too.

I'm moving on to another strategy that exceeds the parameters of "normal". (just getting started).

You for now.....Intel 4000 grit or less. Not sure the VAL is low enough though. What else you got weaker than Intel with short Pin-PAP?
I need more surface at this place, plain and simple. So much oil in the middle, I'm forced to play right on top of the oil line. When transition hits, I have nowhere to go. A little more teeth lets me get in and move around.

Layout alone isn't going to cut it.
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JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.

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Re: Let's talk surface

Post by boomer » August 30th, 2019, 6:01 pm

IQTP (original Butterscotch bomb) - 2K then polished
Original Crux (pomegranate) - 2K right now - was 1K
Marvel S (minty . . . mmmmm) - 500 - stays in the bag mostly
White Dot - who cares? LOL

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Re: Let's talk surface

Post by KYBOB » August 31st, 2019, 12:18 am

Mongo wrote:
I need more surface at this place, plain and simple. So much oil in the middle, I'm forced to play right on top of the oil line. When transition hits, I have nowhere to go. A little more teeth lets me get in and move around. Again...I've been there done that. Experienced the same thing on the fresh as I stated before. Although I did have some really high games in there I HAD TO BE precise every shot.

Layout alone isn't going to cut it. True
See comments in "red".

You sell the Dragon yet? If not, don't give up on it yet. Plug it and get it ready. (Don't want to hear it....get it ready :lol: )

I missed the classes on "low flare" and the "reactive resin respond/roll like urethane" layouts or I'd give you something. Ask Eric and MegaMav for their input on these 2 layouts for you. OR maybe you know how.

I saw in one of your posts somewhere in this forum you stated being confined to 12 boards......I believe that can be expanded to 14 boards. :)

After practice session today, I may not have to be as far outside the "norm" as I anticipated. BUT I have to keep in mind the lanes were oiled late yesterday afternoon/evening. Will know more after Wed nite.

You got ANYTHING "pin down" or close? Anything like Rack Attack Pearl? Or a Cyclops?

You remember the "target lesson" I suggested at the Monday Eliminator? MAY need adjusted to 3 boards left (at least on this THS). Concentrate more on hitting the target and don't worry about anything else. You'll feel a change in the release. Let it develop on it's own and don't try to force the change. Play more straight as opposed to more angle. I'm starting to think that we are limited to the 14 board area no matter if THS or Sport/Challenge shots. MAY have to learn how to play MORE LEFT on Sport/Challenge shots than what we ever have before! Don't see why we can't loft the left gutter too! :shock:
KyBOB
________________________________

STATS:

LH
PAP = 4"< x 1"^
Speed = 18-19 off hand
Rev Rate = 250-275
AR = 45*-50*
AT = 23*

TonyPR
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Re: Let's talk surface

Post by TonyPR » September 1st, 2019, 12:35 am

To fight wet/dry-over/under get the ball to read earlier (more friction)... surface, more rpms, less tilt and rotation, less speed, stronger ball can all achieve this... pick the above combo that best suits your game...

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Mongo
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Re: Let's talk surface

Post by Mongo » September 2nd, 2019, 2:47 am

We know I've got issues, but I'm still curious as to what surface ranges you have in the bag. :P
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JMerrell wrote:Mongo,
We need to work on getting that teddy bear body of yours more open throughout the approach.

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EricHartwell
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Re: Let's talk surface

Post by EricHartwell » September 2nd, 2019, 3:57 pm

I keep my 4 ball roller set up like this for leagues ...

Oil ball ....................... 1500 grit
Benchmark ................. 3000 grit
lighter oil ................... 4000 grit
Dry lane .................... 5000 grit compound

I don't often need the 1500 grit in competition. I use it in practice to start breaking down my line and to get a good read of the lane. I add balls with lower grit for tournament and sport patterns.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

KYBOB
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Re: Let's talk surface

Post by KYBOB » September 5th, 2019, 4:01 am

MONGO:

Well Wed nite has come and gone. Same old stuff, over/under BUT carry seemed a tad better. Started w/ the Dragon at 4000, seemed to be too much ball. Switched back and forth between the Rack Attack Pearl and the Cyclops (both shined up either with Royal Compound or Royal Shine. Too lazy to get up to find my notes). Anyway, the RA Pearl didn't give me the right look. Switched back to the Cyclops for the last half of game 3. Feel like I found something the last couple of frames. threw a bad shot in the 10th. Converted the spare. Threw a good shot last ball and struck. I'll pick up from there on Monday and let you know. Playing the shot tight with some left to right in approach. It seems promising so it's still a work in progress. Probably will shine up the Katana and the RA Solid and put them in the mix.

How's things on your end?
KyBOB
________________________________

STATS:

LH
PAP = 4"< x 1"^
Speed = 18-19 off hand
Rev Rate = 250-275
AR = 45*-50*
AT = 23*

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Re: Let's talk surface

Post by RobMautner » September 5th, 2019, 2:47 pm

Some of the best advice I ever got came from Ron Mohr. He said that when the lanes get over/under, you have to decide whether to play in the oil or play in the dry. When you try to play the oil line when the lanes are over/under, you will lose 20 pins to the field each game. It works!

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Re: Let's talk surface

Post by TonyPR » September 7th, 2019, 5:26 am

Surface:
Lately it’s been 3 balls,
Black Hammer 500
Web Tour 500/1000
Tundra 500/1000/Polish

Using the Tundra as both a strike ball and as my spare ball, gave away my plastic.

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Re: Let's talk surface

Post by KYBOB » September 10th, 2019, 2:42 am

MONGO:
Same old stuff tonight. Hitting pocket, not much carry. Didn't even count the numerous single pin leaves tonight. Gonna have to find a lower grit surface with the right ball, the high grits do nothing but push the oil around and down. May even have to change delivery and hand position.

Have you had any success ?
KyBOB
________________________________

STATS:

LH
PAP = 4"< x 1"^
Speed = 18-19 off hand
Rev Rate = 250-275
AR = 45*-50*
AT = 23*

KYBOB
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Posts: 124
Joined: January 26th, 2010, 3:31 am
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Positive Axis Point: 4" Left - 1"^
Speed: 18-19 (off hand)
Rev Rate: 275
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Axis Rotation: 50+-
Preferred Company: Morich, Radical
Location: Nicholasville, KY

Re: Let's talk surface

Post by KYBOB » September 10th, 2019, 2:58 am

RobMautner wrote:Some of the best advice I ever got came from Ron Mohr. He said that when the lanes get over/under, you have to decide whether to play in the oil or play in the dry. When you try to play the oil line when the lanes are over/under, you will lose 20 pins to the field each game. It works!
Yep, around here it's 40+/ game. Tried playing both the dry and the oil, same old stuff just different part of lane. Had a tad bit of success in the oil but it's not consistent nor reliable. If the ball leaks left a tad it goes nose or Brooklyn. Leak right a tad and your looking at flat sevens or 9 pins. If leaks several boards left ball won't recover either it skids or hooks out. Right now trying the dryer area and working with surface and ball combination. May even have to change delivery and/or hand position.
KyBOB
________________________________

STATS:

LH
PAP = 4"< x 1"^
Speed = 18-19 off hand
Rev Rate = 250-275
AR = 45*-50*
AT = 23*

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Re: Let's talk surface

Post by kajmk » September 10th, 2019, 3:01 am

KYBOB wrote:MONGO:
Same old stuff tonight. Hitting pocket, not much carry. Didn't even count the numerous single pin leaves tonight. Gonna have to find a lower grit surface with the right ball, the high grits do nothing but push the oil around and down. May even have to change delivery and hand position.

Have you had any success ?
KYBOB, do you think that lowering your ball speed a bit might help your carry?
I ask this based on your posted speed using the chart at
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... evRate.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Do you take note of where the ball enters the pit on pocket hits, ideally your ball should split the 8-9 gap.
What do you think?
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

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KYBOB
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Re: Let's talk surface

Post by KYBOB » September 10th, 2019, 3:52 am

kajmk wrote:
KYBOB, do you think that lowering your ball speed a bit might help your carry?
I ask this based on your posted speed using the chart at
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... evRate.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Do you take note of where the ball enters the pit on pocket hits, ideally your ball should split the 8-9 gap.
What do you think?
Yeah tried that tonight too (for the umpteenth time). Maybe get a double or turkey then hit a tad high pocket and leave 6 pin. Make move and flat seven or swish 10. Change balls get lined up then lose carry. Tried normal speed maybe strike then no carry. Moved down in equipment, get lined up and ball starts going long and have to move again. Gonna have to find a way to deplete the oil I guess. OH and yes I'm well schooled on how the ball enters the pocket and how it should split the 8/9. MOST of the 7 pins are due to the ball going too long even though the entry angle looks good. 6 pins are mostly due to ball picking up a tad soon. When try to adjust for the 6 pin leave the majority of the time I see a flat seven or a weak 10 cause the ball went too long. Move feet or target, move both, move target toward me or down lane until I find carry. Carry holds for 2 or 3 frames and then right back to flat 7's. I'll tell you this, problems are with the fresh oil. Once the pattern lays for a few hours I can score really well, with about any ball I've got. One would think surface would overcome that but it doesn't. I've tried about every surface and combination of surfaces to no avail. Have been able to watch Mongo some on both THS and Sport, he experiences the same as myself. We've even crossed together on Sport but just not enough traffic to get something going. I will stress that hitting the pocket is no problem, not being able to carry is the problem. Used numerous layouts, surfaces, hand positions, finger positions, etc. Gonna change delivery and see what comes of that.
KyBOB
________________________________

STATS:

LH
PAP = 4"< x 1"^
Speed = 18-19 off hand
Rev Rate = 250-275
AR = 45*-50*
AT = 23*

Daryl
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Re: Let's talk surface

Post by Daryl » September 10th, 2019, 1:35 pm

Are other bowlers having trouble carrying? If so maybe the racks are off enough to contribute to the corner pin problem. I remember a 3 game title match between Ryan Ciminelli and Norm Duke in which Ryan just got 7 pined to death. He pounded the pocket but the racks were bad enough for the left side to make it difficult to carry 7 pins. So pin alignment does matter.

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RPM (off hand) 390
Speed (off hand) 15.3 mph
Axis Tilt; 18 degrees
Axis Rotation: 55 degrees
PAP: 5 13/16" x 5/16" up

KYBOB
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Rev Rate: 275
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Axis Rotation: 50+-
Preferred Company: Morich, Radical
Location: Nicholasville, KY

Re: Let's talk surface

Post by KYBOB » September 11th, 2019, 3:08 am

Daryl wrote:Are other bowlers having trouble carrying? If so maybe the racks are off enough to contribute to the corner pin problem. I remember a 3 game title match between Ryan Ciminelli and Norm Duke in which Ryan just got 7 pined to death. He pounded the pocket but the racks were bad enough for the left side to make it difficult to carry 7 pins. So pin alignment does matter.

Daryl
Unfortunately I'm the only left-hander in the house of any caliber. Although, there is a bowler of equal caliber shoeing up left-handed this year. Will be watching to see how he does.

Right-handers don't have a problem with carry or lack of area to play MOST of the time. What hurts them most is under skilled players using urethane.

No problem with the racks except one lane. It's the 2 pin but usually doesn't cause a problem. It's for certain the oil pattern. Just cannot find the combination for consistency.
KyBOB
________________________________

STATS:

LH
PAP = 4"< x 1"^
Speed = 18-19 off hand
Rev Rate = 250-275
AR = 45*-50*
AT = 23*

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