Axis rotation and Hook

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jdrsuper
Member
Member
Posts: 179
Joined: March 7th, 2015, 12:44 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 11/16 over 1 up
Speed: 13 off hand
Rev Rate: 200
Axis Tilt: 24
Axis Rotation: 75
Heavy Oil Ball: Track Logix
Medium Oil Ball: Track Paradox
Light Oil Ball: Hammer Widow Black Urethane
Preferred Company: Ebonite Brands

Axis rotation and Hook

Post by jdrsuper » June 6th, 2019, 10:58 pm

People,
You can see my specs in my signature. In April I reached my 79th year and have been bowling on and off since I was 16. This year was the first year I bowled in a league (11 A.M. senior league) since my home house Cambrian Lanes in San Jose closed. I finished with a 149 avg. I bowl Sundays at the local ABT Bay area Branch where my average is in the 150's. They usually put out sport shots but lately those shots, I haven't seen anything longer than 42 ft. I bowl with 12 lb equipment due to my Ankyspondylitis and Dish. My arsenal that I use consists of a Track Tundra and Logix, Ebonite Maxim, Storm Intense, Motiv Venom Shock Pearl, Hammer Widow spare, Black Widow urethane with gasmask core, and on occasions 1987 a Brunswick custom LTD. My problem ( I think) do to my slow ball speed and high axis rotation and my old school delivery. (muscle memory is hard habit to change) I can no longer line up anywhere between the 1 and 13 boards and deliver a ball that will hit the left side pocket except the maxim or the LTD. With the rest of my equipment I stand left of center and throw at the 4 pin to hit the pocket. My questions are is my assumption that my slow ball speed combined with my axis rotation and old school release causing me to have too much hook. If I'm correct or not any advice to overcome this problem will be greatly appreciated.
Joel Resnick
Hand: Left
PAP: 4 11/16 over 1 up
Speed: 13 off hand
Rev Rate: 200
Axis Tilt: 24
Axis Rotation: 75

No matter what you are trying to do remember simplicity gives better results than over complicating things.

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EricHartwell
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Posts: 3588
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Axis rotation and Hook

Post by EricHartwell » June 7th, 2019, 2:36 am

You are absolutely correct in thinking your delivery is making the game of bowling more difficult for you.
Physical limitations are tough to deal with. You can only do what you can do.
Your slow speed has necessitated the need for high tilt and rotation to get the ball long enough and quite often it isn't long enough.
With that said weaker coverstocks will be your friend.

Learn to use the inside lines to help get the ball to go longer. Early friction is not your friend.

Asymmetrical balls with longer pin to PAP will help get the ball to roll forward sooner. This will equate to less hook because it makes for a shorter hook zone.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

jdrsuper
Member
Member
Posts: 179
Joined: March 7th, 2015, 12:44 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 11/16 over 1 up
Speed: 13 off hand
Rev Rate: 200
Axis Tilt: 24
Axis Rotation: 75
Heavy Oil Ball: Track Logix
Medium Oil Ball: Track Paradox
Light Oil Ball: Hammer Widow Black Urethane
Preferred Company: Ebonite Brands

Re: Axis rotation and Hook

Post by jdrsuper » June 7th, 2019, 6:48 am

EricHartwell wrote:You are absolutely correct in thinking your delivery is making the game of bowling more difficult for you.
Physical limitations are tough to deal with. You can only do what you can do.
Your slow speed has necessitated the need for high tilt and rotation to get the ball long enough and quite often it isn't long enough.
With that said weaker coverstocks will be your friend.

Learn to use the inside lines to help get the ball to go longer. Early friction is not your friend.

Asymmetrical balls with longer pin to PAP will help get the ball to roll forward sooner. This will equate to less hook because it makes for a shorter hook zone.
Eric,
Thanks for your reply. Do they make asymmetrical balls with weaker coverstocks? I would assume weaker coverstocks are found in the lower end of bowling ball companies and are usually symmetrical. I will look at Motiv because supposedly there cores are the same in 12 to 16 lb balls? I am working to get better using the inside line and aiming at the four pin but as you said there are times that I just don't get out far enough and yes it goes right by the headpin heading for the ten. Will polish or dull finish be better for me with a weaker coverstock and how to pearls compare to solids. Thanks as always for all your help.
Joel Resnick
Hand: Left
PAP: 4 11/16 over 1 up
Speed: 13 off hand
Rev Rate: 200
Axis Tilt: 24
Axis Rotation: 75

No matter what you are trying to do remember simplicity gives better results than over complicating things.

gunso
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Posts: 291
Joined: April 4th, 2015, 11:47 pm
Location: Iceland

Re: Axis rotation and Hook

Post by gunso » June 7th, 2019, 7:25 am

In a recent interview on a podcast Jodh blanchard advocated for older and younger people with light balls and low ball speed to hit the brooklyn side of the pocket. It carried better according to some usbc study

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EricHartwell
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Posts: 3588
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Axis rotation and Hook

Post by EricHartwell » June 7th, 2019, 11:02 pm

jdrsuper wrote:
Eric,
Thanks for your reply. Do they make asymmetrical balls with weaker coverstocks? I would assume weaker coverstocks are found in the lower end of bowling ball companies and are usually symmetrical. I will look at Motiv because supposedly there cores are the same in 12 to 16 lb balls? I am working to get better using the inside line and aiming at the four pin but as you said there are times that I just don't get out far enough and yes it goes right by the headpin heading for the ten. Will polish or dull finish be better for me with a weaker coverstock and how to pearls compare to solids. Thanks as always for all your help.
Dull will give you early read of the lane and can give you hook set type motion or make it roll out.
It will also slow your ball down even more. Use it early in practice and starting the set to help breakdown the lane and create some margin of error for the shiny transition ball.

Shiny will push the reaction further down lane and be use most often by people with slower speeds.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

jdrsuper
Member
Member
Posts: 179
Joined: March 7th, 2015, 12:44 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 11/16 over 1 up
Speed: 13 off hand
Rev Rate: 200
Axis Tilt: 24
Axis Rotation: 75
Heavy Oil Ball: Track Logix
Medium Oil Ball: Track Paradox
Light Oil Ball: Hammer Widow Black Urethane
Preferred Company: Ebonite Brands

Re: Axis rotation and Hook

Post by jdrsuper » June 8th, 2019, 1:04 am

EricHartwell wrote: Dull will give you early read of the lane and can give you hook set type motion or make it roll out.
It will also slow your ball down even more. Use it early in practice and starting the set to help breakdown the lane and create some margin of error for the shiny transition ball.

Shiny will push the reaction further down lane and be use most often by people with slower speeds.
Eric,
Thanks again I'll use dull in practice and maybe for 4 to 5 frames and switch to shiny this Sunday at the ABT depending on the shot. I know you don't recommend balls but I was thinking of the Hammer Blue Vibe and the Motiv Thrill to replace the Logix and Intense, does this make sense. If yes I would appreciate layouts for those balls.
Joel Resnick
Hand: Left
PAP: 4 11/16 over 1 up
Speed: 13 off hand
Rev Rate: 200
Axis Tilt: 24
Axis Rotation: 75

No matter what you are trying to do remember simplicity gives better results than over complicating things.

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3588
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Axis rotation and Hook

Post by EricHartwell » June 12th, 2019, 3:30 am

jdrsuper wrote:
Eric,
Thanks again I'll use dull in practice and maybe for 4 to 5 frames and switch to shiny this Sunday at the ABT depending on the shot. I know you don't recommend balls but I was thinking of the Hammer Blue Vibe and the Motiv Thrill to replace the Logix and Intense, does this make sense. If yes I would appreciate layouts for those balls.
Hand: Left
PAP: 4 11/16 over 1 up
Speed: 13 off hand
Rev Rate: 200
Axis Tilt: 24
Axis Rotation: 75

Blue Vibe ................ 70-4-25

Motiv Thrill ............. 70-4-25

The drilling angles are measured to the thumb hole.
Both these balls have really weak cores. The Vibe will flare more than the Thrill, barely.
The differentials are so low that the core will be of no help getting the ball to roll.
The layouts I chose are basically to maximize the differential and get a little bit of flare out of them.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

jdrsuper
Member
Member
Posts: 179
Joined: March 7th, 2015, 12:44 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 11/16 over 1 up
Speed: 13 off hand
Rev Rate: 200
Axis Tilt: 24
Axis Rotation: 75
Heavy Oil Ball: Track Logix
Medium Oil Ball: Track Paradox
Light Oil Ball: Hammer Widow Black Urethane
Preferred Company: Ebonite Brands

Re: Axis rotation and Hook

Post by jdrsuper » June 12th, 2019, 6:30 am

EricHartwell wrote: Hand: Left
PAP: 4 11/16 over 1 up
Speed: 13 off hand
Rev Rate: 200
Axis Tilt: 24
Axis Rotation: 75

Blue Vibe ................ 70-4-25

Motiv Thrill ............. 70-4-25

The drilling angles are measured to the thumb hole.
Both these balls have really weak cores. The Vibe will flare more than the Thrill, barely.
The differentials are so low that the core will be of no help getting the ball to roll.
The layouts I chose are basically to maximize the differential and get a little bit of flare out of them.
Eric,
Thanks for your continued help. However after talking to my PSO and only talking about a weak coverstock he thought that the Vibe and the Thrill wasn't weak enough and suggested the Columbia Messenger which I ordered and would appreciate a layout for that ball and I will plug my storm intense to get a longer pin to pap so would appreciate a layout for the intense to.
Joel Resnick
Hand: Left
PAP: 4 11/16 over 1 up
Speed: 13 off hand
Rev Rate: 200
Axis Tilt: 24
Axis Rotation: 75

No matter what you are trying to do remember simplicity gives better results than over complicating things.

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3588
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Axis rotation and Hook

Post by EricHartwell » June 12th, 2019, 9:59 pm

The question to ask is do you want to play with flare or no flare?

With little to no flare you can create carrydown then move outside of it using it for hold to the inside.
75-5.5-35

With some flare carrydown will be minimized and you migrate your line further inside as the lanes break down.
70-4-25
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

jdrsuper
Member
Member
Posts: 179
Joined: March 7th, 2015, 12:44 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 11/16 over 1 up
Speed: 13 off hand
Rev Rate: 200
Axis Tilt: 24
Axis Rotation: 75
Heavy Oil Ball: Track Logix
Medium Oil Ball: Track Paradox
Light Oil Ball: Hammer Widow Black Urethane
Preferred Company: Ebonite Brands

Re: Axis rotation and Hook

Post by jdrsuper » June 12th, 2019, 10:31 pm

EricHartwell wrote:The question to ask is do you want to play with flare or no flare?

With little to no flare you can create carrydown then move outside of it using it for hold to the inside.
75-5.5-35

With some flare carrydown will be minimized and you migrate your line further inside as the lanes break down.
70-4-25
Eric,

Thanks as usual. I am as you already assumed not very conversant with the modern game. I'm assuming your suggestions are for the Columbia Messenger and not the Intense. If I am correct I'd go
with the 75-5.5-35 which if I follow your advice successfully I should be able to play more outside and up the boards. If I am wrong I am lost and any help will be greatly appreciated. Your suggestion of playing more inside helped me make the semi-finals this week playing on the USBC open 42ft singles and doubles pattern, so thanks again.

Joel
Joel Resnick
Hand: Left
PAP: 4 11/16 over 1 up
Speed: 13 off hand
Rev Rate: 200
Axis Tilt: 24
Axis Rotation: 75

No matter what you are trying to do remember simplicity gives better results than over complicating things.

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3588
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: Axis rotation and Hook

Post by EricHartwell » June 12th, 2019, 11:32 pm

Yes my suggestions were for the Messenger.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

jdrsuper
Member
Member
Posts: 179
Joined: March 7th, 2015, 12:44 am
Positive Axis Point: 4 11/16 over 1 up
Speed: 13 off hand
Rev Rate: 200
Axis Tilt: 24
Axis Rotation: 75
Heavy Oil Ball: Track Logix
Medium Oil Ball: Track Paradox
Light Oil Ball: Hammer Widow Black Urethane
Preferred Company: Ebonite Brands

Re: Axis rotation and Hook

Post by jdrsuper » June 13th, 2019, 12:04 am

EricHartwell wrote:Yes my suggestions were for the Messenger.
Eric,
Thanks and no more questions.
Joel Resnick
Hand: Left
PAP: 4 11/16 over 1 up
Speed: 13 off hand
Rev Rate: 200
Axis Tilt: 24
Axis Rotation: 75

No matter what you are trying to do remember simplicity gives better results than over complicating things.

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